Lore Discussion: The Humanity of a Monster (Spoilers)

[Walrus-Sama]

Warning: This thread seeks to discuss the Lore about Warframes, it will contain very big Spoilers so if you are not up to date with current Lore and Spoilers (this will include Mainstory Quests and Fortuna), I suggest you don't read what is below. You have been warned.



Lets begin:
So, at current what we know about Warframes is they are merely a Technocyte Golem constructed from something that used to be 'Human' that was Infested with the Helminth Strain and twisted and molded into what is basicly a Humanoid Weapon for the Void Corrupted Operator Children to control.

Warframes are more or less treated like Souless Puppets doing the bidding of the Tenno. Nothing more than a Tool. What we learned from The Sacrifice and other Lore sources seems to heavily imply all traces Humanity of the unfortunate subject who became this Monster were removed, destroyed, when the Helminth Infestation morphed their bodies and minds into these Metal/Organic forms. No sense of self, no thought, no will, no nothing. Emptiness. A hollow slave waiting for a command.

What a grim fate.

I dunno, It pains me that the thing the game gets it's title from, Warframes, are so empty. The central focus of the story being so hollow. A Character without Humanity.

However, the little secret that comes with the recent Fortuna update, the secret you'll discover when you reach the highest tier of Standing with Solaris United syndicate has made me think. When you are trusted the mostly Robotic-like people of Fortuna will open up to you, litterally, they will show you their face, their true self. They will show you their Humanity in a sense. It makes you empathise with them a bit more.

Funny thing, Humans tend to be more invested in a story and it's characters if they feel what they are dealing with is Human. If a character acts in a realstic human way, shows emotions, etc, it's easier for them to put themself in their shoes so to speak. Basic Empathy. Right?

So why is it the main focus of the game, these Warframes, are so void of any of that?
I understand that the Player is set in the perspective of their Operator, and that the Operator is in a sense the 'Main Character'.
But still, part of me really wants Warframes to get more depth. More Humanity.

It's been hinted at very briefly (Warframe removing War from it's chest. Excalibur Umbra.) but so far we've seen very little.

Personally, I think if would be very important to steer the story in such a way that only together (Operator and a Self-Aware Warframe) can they be truely strong enough to defeat the coming threat. To give the Warframes humanity and depth, and for Operator and Warframe to bond seems like the most logical step from a story perspective. Yet we've seen very little so far.

I dunno. Perhaps we'll see such a Quest in the future (The New War?) but for now I'll guess we'll have to wait.

Thoughts?

[Watermelons]

引用自 Ishan451：

Although there are also more possible story lines in which Warframes exhibit personalities. Both the Titania and the Inaros storyline doesn't seem to involve a Tenno and just the Warframe. Which begs the question if they are like Umbra or if there was a Tenno controlling them and just abandoning them... or any other possible myriad of questions.

It could also be that they were of an earlier generation, unlike the one we rebuild.

The most popular speculation is that they're still Warframes as normal, but the Operator is too deeply kept in their second dream to ever wake up, and they full accept and believe their Warframe is their body and person. That same speculation is in fact what conflicts the Stalker in the Second Dream quest too. Even Hunhow brings it up.

[Ishan451]

引用自 Something Something Watermelons：

That same speculation is in fact what conflicts the Stalker in the Second Dream quest too. Even Hunhow brings it up.

While Stalker is said to be a Tenno that had woken up previously and got crazy once he learned he is a child and not a Warframe, which is how i understood it, the thing that always bothered me about that is that eliminating the Stalker would be as simple as finding his pod.

Our Operator seems to be special in that he doesn't need the machinery, and the Stalker also seems to have no ability to defend itself from our Operator when we leave the Frame to reset his sentient resistances.

To me that means Stalker, whatever he is, is neither as strong nor developed as our Operator.

And Ordis also acts surprised at our Tenno not needing the machine anymore, which suggests its very much an unexpected development among Tenno.

[Watermelons]

引用自 Ishan451：

引用自 Something Something Watermelons：

That same speculation is in fact what conflicts the Stalker in the Second Dream quest too. Even Hunhow brings it up.

While Stalker is said to be a Tenno that had woken up previously and got crazy once he learned he is a child and not a Warframe, which is how i understood it, the thing that always bothered me about that is that eliminating the Stalker would be as simple as finding his pod.

He never went to sleep. He witnessed the Tenno betrayal, he was there and remembers it all. He uses a Warframe, seems to be a child of the Zariman Ten-Zero, but maybe he wasn't accepted among the Tenno. His Codex entry calls himself a low guardian, and he clearly wasn't included in the Lotus' deception. He seemed to be below the other Tenno; maybe he was something of an outcast like Rell.

Our Operator seems to be special in that he doesn't need the machinery, and the Stalker also seems to have no ability to defend itself from our Operator when we leave the Frame to reset his sentient resistances.

Can't imagine there's much to do to defend against Void energy. The Sentient armor's energy is not his own so all he can do is wear it and hope we don't blast it and negate its protection.

[Malidictus]

引用自 Ishan451：

As it is unadressed.. there is a lot of speculations we could do, up to and including the point that the Operator's subconsciousness was controlling the Warframe, as we later would unlock the ability to teleport ourselves to it.

True, I don't know that for a fact. In a lot of cases, I'm guessing based on what makes sense from a writer's perspective and what the meta-narrative seems to be building up to, both of which are obviously not entirely factual. In the case of The Second Dream, a lot of attention is brought to the Warframe moving after having established the Operator's inability to control it. For it to mean nothing beyind a cheap plot device to get rid of the Stalker would be pretty weak writing, in contrast with the rest of the arcs generally pretty good writing. As with "Hey, kiddo!" I tend to see that bit as setting up future events not yet revealed, or at the very least leaving enough room for future plot twists not yet planned for.

Basically, I tend to err on the side of foreshadowing whenever the alternative seems to be just bad writing. At least, depending on the writing staff of the game and their previous body of work, which for Warframe is a decently high bar.

引用自 Ishan451：

While Stalker is said to be a Tenno that had woken up previously and got crazy once he learned he is a child and not a Warframe, which is how i understood it, the thing that always bothered me about that is that eliminating the Stalker would be as simple as finding his pod.

I'm not convinced the Stalker is a Tenno. I do agree that his outfit looks like a heavily-adorned Zariman suit, but that's about where the similarities end in my eyes. Him being very obviously an adult is a major problem. Even if we assume the Zariman children age normally (which I'm not convinced of), his suit wouldn't have expanded with him and there are no visible signs of modification. I suppose he could have just nicked an adult's Zariman suit after growing up - maybe they kept making those even after the Zariman incident. It seems a bit contrived, though, from a writing perspective.

The Stalker also doesn't seem to wield the Void powers characteristic of the Tenno. He does wield invisibility, but that's closer to a Warframe's invisiblity than Void Mode, which renders the Operator intangible. He also lacks Void Beam, Void Blast or Transference. Instead, he fights with a physical weapon. Worse, he's also WEAK to Void energy, when the Operators are instead immune to it from their exposire to the Void. Now, the latter can be explained at least partially by the Stalker's transformation at the hands of the Sentient Hunhow - we don't really know how Sentient transformation works, and it does seem able to transform humans to various extents. See: Ballas in Chimera Prologue.

Now, this is where I start to simply guess, but if I were writing this... I'd probably write the Stalker as an adult survivor from the Zarimann incident. We know from the Rell comic that the adults were driven insane by the void and from other sources that the children ended up murdering all of them in self defence. Well, from the perspective of an adult driven insane by the void, this event might seem backwards - that it was the children who were affected, and that they slaughtered their parents as an act of aggression. These same children were then weaponised by the Orokin, stuffed inot tanks and enslaved into Warframes (from his perspective), which later rose up to wipe out the Orokin themselves.

From that warped perspective, the Stalker might interpret the Warframes as the dominant personality enslaving the Operators - a conduit of void corruption pushing these innocent children into acts of war and violence. Killing the Warframes would then free the children, but they never seem to stay dead. No matter how many times he kills them, the Warframes come back and still keep the children imprisoned. The only way, then, to free them would be to sever the link... Somehow. I'm not convinced the Stalker was going to kill the Operator when the Warframe moved on its own in the Second Dream, which is why Hunhow was yelling about it so much.

Basically, I believe (with no real evidence) that the Stalker sees the Operator/Warframe relation completely backwards - the Operators are innocent children controlled and corrupted by their vile warframes. That's probably not the case, but eh - I like that interpretation :)

[Radioactive Grass]

引用自 Malidictus：

引用自 Ishan451：

As it is unadressed.. there is a lot of speculations we could do, up to and including the point that the Operator's subconsciousness was controlling the Warframe, as we later would unlock the ability to teleport ourselves to it.

True, I don't know that for a fact. In a lot of cases, I'm guessing based on what makes sense from a writer's perspective and what the meta-narrative seems to be building up to, both of which are obviously not entirely factual. In the case of The Second Dream, a lot of attention is brought to the Warframe moving after having established the Operator's inability to control it. For it to mean nothing beyind a cheap plot device to get rid of the Stalker would be pretty weak writing, in contrast with the rest of the arcs generally pretty good writing. As with "Hey, kiddo!" I tend to see that bit as setting up future events not yet revealed, or at the very least leaving enough room for future plot twists not yet planned for.

Basically, I tend to err on the side of foreshadowing whenever the alternative seems to be just bad writing. At least, depending on the writing staff of the game and their previous body of work, which for Warframe is a decently high bar.

引用自 Ishan451：

While Stalker is said to be a Tenno that had woken up previously and got crazy once he learned he is a child and not a Warframe, which is how i understood it, the thing that always bothered me about that is that eliminating the Stalker would be as simple as finding his pod.

I'm not convinced the Stalker is a Tenno. I do agree that his outfit looks like a heavily-adorned Zariman suit, but that's about where the similarities end in my eyes. Him being very obviously an adult is a major problem. Even if we assume the Zariman children age normally (which I'm not convinced of), his suit wouldn't have expanded with him and there are no visible signs of modification. I suppose he could have just nicked an adult's Zariman suit after growing up - maybe they kept making those even after the Zariman incident. It seems a bit contrived, though, from a writing perspective.

The Stalker also doesn't seem to wield the Void powers characteristic of the Tenno. He does wield invisibility, but that's closer to a Warframe's invisiblity than Void Mode, which renders the Operator intangible. He also lacks Void Beam, Void Blast or Transference. Instead, he fights with a physical weapon. Worse, he's also WEAK to Void energy, when the Operators are instead immune to it from their exposire to the Void. Now, the latter can be explained at least partially by the Stalker's transformation at the hands of the Sentient Hunhow - we don't really know how Sentient transformation works, and it does seem able to transform humans to various extents. See: Ballas in Chimera Prologue.

Now, this is where I start to simply guess, but if I were writing this... I'd probably write the Stalker as an adult survivor from the Zarimann incident. We know from the Rell comic that the adults were driven insane by the void and from other sources that the children ended up murdering all of them in self defence. Well, from the perspective of an adult driven insane by the void, this event might seem backwards - that it was the children who were affected, and that they slaughtered their parents as an act of aggression. These same children were then weaponised by the Orokin, stuffed inot tanks and enslaved into Warframes (from his perspective), which later rose up to wipe out the Orokin themselves.

From that warped perspective, the Stalker might interpret the Warframes as the dominant personality enslaving the Operators - a conduit of void corruption pushing these innocent children into acts of war and violence. Killing the Warframes would then free the children, but they never seem to stay dead. No matter how many times he kills them, the Warframes come back and still keep the children imprisoned. The only way, then, to free them would be to sever the link... Somehow. I'm not convinced the Stalker was going to kill the Operator when the Warframe moved on its own in the Second Dream, which is why Hunhow was yelling about it so much.

Basically, I believe (with no real evidence) that the Stalker sees the Operator/Warframe relation completely backwards - the Operators are innocent children controlled and corrupted by their vile warframes. That's probably not the case, but eh - I like that interpretation :)

From what I've heard, the Stalker was no Tenno. Instead a surviving orokin seeking revenge on the Tenno.

One of the main problems with transference is that normal people could use it to, except they risk having their minds shattered and "being trapped on the other side"

This is exactly what happened to our orokin friend that became the stalker, he himself became a warframe, not quite like umbra did but regardless.

"Who destroyed the Orokin? Your way of life? Who do you hunt, shadow? To cleanse your despair"

"Tenno" -Hunhow to stalker

I'm just going to do a bit of a speculation here and say that the stalker is probably suffering from the same thing umbra did, reliving a terrible memory over and over, only this time its watching his own people die.

Also I'm assuming that being in a warframe body, the stalker is outfitted with a transference bolt, meaning at some point in the future we could do the same thing that we did to umbra and possibly view his memories and find out for ourselves?

[Walrus-Sama]

引用自 Something Something Watermelons：

If the person survives, they're fitted with a Transference Bolt, and a suit is built around them to channel whatever powers that specific person gained. The Transference Bolt is what makes them subservient to a master. In most Warframe's cases, it's their Tenno and likely Ballas/the Seven leaders of the Orokin. For Umbra, it was probably just Ballas, which is why he's able to control him telepathically.

I don't know how I never connected that part. It makes sense I guess, the reason Warframes obey any command in the first place is because of the Transference Bolt.

[Malidictus]

引用自 Grizzmoe：

From what I've heard, the Stalker was no Tenno. Instead a surviving orokin seeking revenge on the Tenno. One of the main problems with transference is that normal people could use it to, except they risk having their minds shattered and "being trapped on the other side." This is exactly what happened to our orokin friend that became the stalker, he himself became a warframe, not quite like umbra did but regardless.

How do you figure he's a Warframe in the first place? The Stalker doesn't look like one, he looks like an adult wearing a Zariman Suit. Warframes have a very distinct (albeit ecclectic) look to them - the look of infested flesh. Excalibur Umbra looks like neither a Dax Soldier nor a human, aside from being vaguely humanoid in shape, yet the Stalker looks exactly like a grown-up version of one of the Zariman kids. I get that you're suggesting that the Stalker was originally a person who got trapped in Transference, but that still leaves the question of why his body doesn't look like Infested Flesh.

[Walrus-Sama]

引用自 Malidictus：

引用自 Grizzmoe：

From what I've heard, the Stalker was no Tenno. Instead a surviving orokin seeking revenge on the Tenno. One of the main problems with transference is that normal people could use it to, except they risk having their minds shattered and "being trapped on the other side." This is exactly what happened to our orokin friend that became the stalker, he himself became a warframe, not quite like umbra did but regardless.

How do you figure he's a Warframe in the first place? The Stalker doesn't look like one, he looks like an adult wearing a Zariman Suit. Warframes have a very distinct (albeit ecclectic) look to them - the look of infested flesh. Excalibur Umbra looks like neither a Dax Soldier nor a human, aside from being vaguely humanoid in shape, yet the Stalker looks exactly like a grown-up version of one of the Zariman kids. I get that you're suggesting that the Stalker was originally a person who got trapped in Transference, but that still leaves the question of why his body doesn't look like Infested Flesh.

Stalker is a Excalibur body with a Stalker head. Come on dude.

[Montiblanc]

i gather that the first frames had a person, they hollowed them out afterwards.

[DuDun]

I believe the self sentience of the Warframe is a result of multiple factors, a warframe without the transference bolt goes rampage as a result of the process itself. A Warframe with the bolt is 'open' to the Tenno, but that doesn't guarantee he will be completly disproved of self awareness, something could stay behind (enuogh to unplug War out of the chest)

Now add to that that the general warframes not having a personality have never been forced upon, they were just members of the Orokin who were test subjects to the weaponization. We don't know how willing they were to it, but it's not like they resisted either.

Umbra however did resist it, he never enlisted/was/chosen/whatever to become a Warframe, Ballas had a bone to pick with him, he made so that particular Dax would acquire the infestation, which led to him become a test subject. But it was all against Umbra's will.

Ballas claims Umbra was a mistake, his mistake. I believe that what he really meant was: an intented mistake, because he wanted to get rid of that particular Dax warrior, but he can't just execute an Orokin Dax, He needed an excuse.

Coveniently, Umbra didn't become an Warframe like the others, he went rampage, like the first ones made without transference. Which was the reason he needed to dispatch him. Umbra was sentient by design, a mistake he could get rid off.

I still think everybody died a milenia ago and we are all Mimics who think they are Tennos.
Lotus 5ever

[SourApple]

引用自 BlackMonk：

#VorDidNothingWrong

Lol sad Vor.

[GrimSentinel]

引用自 Walrus-Sama：

引用自 Something Something Watermelons：

If the person survives, they're fitted with a Transference Bolt, and a suit is built around them to channel whatever powers that specific person gained. The Transference Bolt is what makes them subservient to a master. In most Warframe's cases, it's their Tenno and likely Ballas/the Seven leaders of the Orokin. For Umbra, it was probably just Ballas, which is why he's able to control him telepathically.

I don't know how I never connected that part. It makes sense I guess, the reason Warframes obey any command in the first place is because of the Transference Bolt.

That doesn't really make sense, though. If a Transference Bolt could force the Warframes to obey commands, then the first generation of Warframes wouldn't have turned on the Orokin, and they wouldn't have needed the Tenno. Ballas' power over Umbra seems to be limited to freezing him in place.

[Watermelons]

引用自 GrimSentinel：

引用自 Walrus-Sama：

I don't know how I never connected that part. It makes sense I guess, the reason Warframes obey any command in the first place is because of the Transference Bolt.

That doesn't really make sense, though. If a Transference Bolt could force the Warframes to obey commands, then the first generation of Warframes wouldn't have turned on the Orokin, and they wouldn't have needed the Tenno. Ballas' power over Umbra seems to be limited to freezing him in place.

Therein lies the mystery of a Transference Bolt's exact purpose, hasn't been explained exactly. But that's why Ballas can order Umbra to kill his son right then and there. It could be limited control, since Umbra was still able to roam free after the Moon left the Void. He still attacked Ballas' Sentients, and tried to swing at him too, but Ballas still stops him there and ♥♥♥♥♥ with his head to leave him vulnerable to Natah's beam.
Perhaps, as the name suggestions, Transference Bolts help channel the whole act of Transference to a specific target. Maybe it includes a hard coded limitation to kill Orokin like a Dax, where it's not true mind control but a conditioning drilled into the subject. Maybe the Transference Bolt allows Ballas to transfer small amount of himself in the form of thoughts and commands into the subject.

Also, the original Warframes were not uncontrollable because the Orokin couldn't relay command to them, they'd go mad because of the intense amount of physical and mental pain they felt over their bodily transformation and the immense trauma that went with it through the Infestation. While Umbra's case was special which gave him that last repeating memory, the need for an Operator was still all too relevant. The pain would only go away with an Operator as they take that pain and then decide how they use that to motivate what they do from there on.

[Malidictus]

引用自 Walrus-Sama：

Stalker is a Excalibur body with a Stalker head. Come on dude.

Is he? I admit to not having had a decent look at him since the Second Dream. Do you have a good screenshot of him I can have a look at? Because if he IS an Excalibur body with a Zariman head, then that would change my interpretation of his story significantly.

引用自 DuDun：

Ballas claims Umbra was a mistake, his mistake. I believe that what he really meant was: an intented mistake, because he wanted to get rid of that particular Dax warrior, but he can't just execute an Orokin Dax, He needed an excuse.

That seems like a hard reading to make, personally. For one, Ballas is part of the Orokin Council, if I recall correctly, who appear to have essentially unchecked power. I don't see why executing a simple soldier would be outside his authority when the council seem perfectly capable of executing Archimedians for simply failing to do their jobs.

I might be missing some lore here, but I also don't see where this idea that Ballas was pissed at that particular Dax soldier over the death of his wife comes from. I can see him resenting the rest of the council who are responsible for her death, but I don't see what that one particular Dax had to do with any of it, or with Ballas' defection to the Sentient side.

Finally, that statement seems a lot more general. I read it more to say that Ballas shouldn't have created the Excalibur Umbra in the first place, as he's turned out to be nothing but trouble. Perhaps even that he regrets creating the Warframes in general, either because of what they ended up doing or for the role they played in Margulis' demise.

[Watermelons]

引用自 Malidictus：

引用自 Walrus-Sama：

Stalker is a Excalibur body with a Stalker head. Come on dude.

Is he? I admit to not having had a decent look at him since the Second Dream. Do you have a good screenshot of him I can have a look at? Because if he IS an Excalibur body with a Zariman head, then that would change my interpretation of his story significantly.

It's very clearly an Excalibur body, this was discovered from day one of his addition. I know you're relatively new to Warframe, but even a simple glance at his Codex or reading the Trivia in the wiki would tell you this, so that you don't make incorrect assumptions about the character.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1571935262
His helmet is unique and his shadow form gets some additional attachments, but his body is through and through an Excalibur.
"Zariman head" isn't a thing though, Zariman refers to the Orokin vessel that made an attempt to jump to the Tau system but got stranded in the Void, leaving its population dead/crazed, aside from the children who grew to become the Tenno.

I might be missing some lore here, but I also don't see where this idea that Ballas was pissed at that particular Dax soldier over the death of his wife comes from. I can see him resenting the rest of the council who are responsible for her death, but I don't see what that one particular Dax had to do with any of it, or with Ballas' defection to the Sentient side.

You are correct, the situation with Umbra happened long after her death.