mesa vs ember?

[MR.hyde]

i think mesas and ember are comparable, both kill everything infront of them with their 4, also both have damage reduction and a self buff for dmg however mesa is much easier to use.

does ember have more dmg because she has a higher skill floor?

btw, i noticed mesa wont attack "capture" targets, i actually tested it only in 1 mission and it was a nullifier. however i killed his dome with a normal weapon and mesa would still not attack the nullifier with her 4, i was close enough though.

[8faiNt ı♣ı]

No you cant compare mesa and ember
Ember is a very close warframe to saryn
and the only warframe I could think of that could be a mesa 2.0 is garuda

[Pakaku]

Mesa has a passive that I like, too bad she's burdened with an "aimbot" ability for her 4

[MR.hyde]

Publicado originalmente por Pakaku:

Mesa has a passive that I like, too bad she's burdened with an "aimbot" ability for her 4

i play with gamepad most of the time and having an aimbot-skill is pretty neat

[PhellAsleep]

I would consider Mesa unique in that she is the one you would want to bring to missions and boss fights that restrict your weapons. Frames like Ember, Saryn, and Equinox are probably better at clearing waves of generic type enemies.

[Walrus-Sama]

Mesa is superior in every way.

[Doragor]

Publicado originalmente por Walrus-Sama:

Mesa is superior in every way.

Wish they would buff more Warframes to Mesa's standard

[The Big Brzezinski]

I wonder about Mesa. Peacemaker is just so absolutely dominant, surely it's nerf bait. Maybe instead of a toggled murder hose, just tap it to rapidly distribute a stack of damage over a few seconds within a cone, starting with the lowest health mobs. Something like this might keep Peacemaker's damage spam functionality and still bring it in with other aoe nukes. Regulators as a passive exalted secondary, like Garuda's talons, might be fun as well.

I'm ashamed to say I still need to try out the new Ember.

[Yuki]

They aint comparable. Not in the long run. Once you get past entry level missions Ember will fall very short very very quickly.
While both attack everything in sight and in comparable range, Ember is limited to 10 enemies per skill use and has to pay energy for each. Mesa in the meanwhile keeps tearing through hordes for a fraction of the cost with her comparably miniscule time based "fee".

Also properly build every single shot of Mesa's 4 is as devastating as Ember's 4. But you can have something in the range of 20+ shots/second. For ages.

So starting in the 30's Ember may no longer be able to actually kill something with her 4 while Mesa melts down Lvl 110 Kuva Lich Thralls and their Rank 5 Masters in an instant.

Titania would be more comparable to Mesa. Strip the aimbot, actually aim. You gain free flight and the by far fastest speed in the game in return (Titania can easily "outrun" the fastest and even teleporting archwing- with a standard mission build. Yes this fast, shes the warframe actually able to reach super sonic speeds (343 m/s)).
Plus a single target DPS that lets even Mesa eat dust, and thats a very bold achievement given how deadly Mesa already is. She does however also share the "hey we give you an awesome skill but everywhere where it counts you cant use it" problem. She could be a beast in arbitrations, but of course drones are completely immune to her weapons and force her to leave her pixie form for her way more vulnerable main form.

Publicado originalmente por The Big Brzezinski:

I'm ashamed to say I still need to try out the new Ember.

If you liked her, just dont. It will make you cry.
She is stripped of her last niche and "enters the vault" for everyone i know. Nerfed into oblivion while everyone and their mother was asking for a buff for her.

She got stripped of most of her CC. And while she gained an armor debuff that could potentially make up for her well known lack in damage- her main damage got nerfed even further. Weaker, limited to "in sight" and at most 10 per click, plus a cost per enemy hit.
The new visuals are awesome, among the best skill visuals in the game! But thats it. Her new 4 hits a tiny bit stronger to begin with compared to her old, but without fire accelerant its weaker in the end even without taking the new limitations and massively increased energy costs into account.

It does make her more "beginner friendly" to play in low level solo missions against a very limited number of enemies and with unranked mods. As does the addition of her new damage mitigation, for the price of a huge loss of dps potential even in low level and being useless even sooner than ever before.

[MR.hyde]

Publicado originalmente por Yuki:

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i admit i only tried ember in SO and during my first run i noticed the atrocious range on her 4. on my second run i gave her more range and the experience was much better.

did u test her with the augments for her 3 which heals her or her 4 which gives energy orbs? i saw a youtuber and he said at first he thought the augment for her 4 real bad but after he tried it he felt like it made things much better.

[Yuki]

Both wont change the fundamental problem with her. But yes. Her old augments got transformed into the new ones, so i had them at my disposal.

The heal is rather weak and can easily be substituted with a healing type weapon, which...kinda was a standard on her, on any DD anyways. Just hammering a single shot from a redeemer or two from a sarpa with life steal on any target is more powerful than using the heal augment in a full ESO spawn wave. (BTW, dont use her on ESO. Or do and wonder why that DE dev actually wonders why he doesnt see more Embers in ESO now...)

The energy orb augment does not make up for the costs, not even at 160% efficiency and with 2 Arcane Energize. Let alone that this means quite the investment in slots and ...expensive stuff just to keep her running.

And for what? For less damage than she used to provide, which was already heavily criticized of falling way too short of any other area DD.

The most useful augment imho is actually sharing her Damage Mitigation. It shares...oh yes, 50% of her mitigation while others share full. Did i mention she falls short to others in every capacity? But lets combine that with a build that lets her stay at max heat for most of the time. Eh not quite. Once you reach max heat you get all the nasty "no energy from this source anymore" stuff again. Okay, then a build that puts her at max heat at the hit of a button.
45% damage mitigation to your team on enemy contact is better than nothing right? Plus the fire ball augment to make your team ignite enemies - to make full use of her passive power strength for max damage (more power for every enemy set aflame in some actually decent range). Nah. Still not there. Plus if your team ignites enemies to make your 4 do more damage- eh...they are gone before you finish the casting animation.

But that damage mitigation/heatshield mechanic is just the next thing that shows just how half arsed this "rework" was. It doesnt scale properly.
In a nutshell similar to her former 4 Ember can now build up heat with the shield of her 2, similar to gauss kinetic shield and battery.
The more heat the more effective your damage skills and the higher your damage mitigation, a bit like Gauss redline actually. Mitigation of course capped at 90%.
Once you reach max heat however you begin to loose energy faster than a 35% efficiency wisp during solar gate. And none at all before that. Binary. Quite a theme for this meter:

It builds up over time and using her skills makes it build up faster -or slower.
An interresting idea i could play a lot with- if it would be balanced properly. As it is right now depending on your duration you have exactly two options:
-Below about 125% duration: Go to max in an instant whatever you do.
-Above: You take some time. A very very long time actually if you WANT to be at or close to max for max buff.

If it would scale properly i could see medium duration builds favoring more skill uses, including even her 1, to keep her at a constant 75-100%. Buuuuut...nope. Somehow possible with keeping your eyes at the corner of the screen all of the time, but thats more for theorycrafting and not really viable in most games due to the binary nature of this "scaling".

And even at max heat buff with an ignis igniting enemies to make full use of her new passive- the damage per target of her 4 doesnt reach the old values of her 4 if that was combined with fire accelerant. But hey- Her 3 gives her an armor strip capability now! Damage that scales well! Buuut, again in comparison to other frames with that- the weakest i know - also thanks to the wonky heat mechanic. It can potentially strip all, but that means that you are approaching this new group of enemies with an energy loss far beyond good and evil.
Oh and stripping enemy armor instantly means loosing heat, loosing a lot of damage again to set off the little gain you might have gotten from melting their armor.

What are you supposed to do? Deplete all your energy by staying at a full meter while rushing to the next enemy- then eat a pizza, strip armor, throw some fireballs into a corner to build up heat again, eat some energy pizzas-then nuke? -> Maybe for people at lower level without maxed mods playing solo, everywhere else all enemies are long gone before you can set up this chain. No matter whats on your team. Everyone is faster, even an Excalibur with a braton.
Okay lets skip that energy pizza and have an EV trinity on your team. Okay, you just stripped enemy armor. And your damage hit rock bottom in an instant. And your damage mitigation as well. It works in the first stages of SO, but try that in ESO or comparable and you are dead meat.

In all relevant level ranges even Mag and Hildryns non relative but absolute defense-strips are way better. Let alone Nyx in most cases even though she is limited to fewer targets. And Embers is the most energy expensive again.

I dare say i tried my best to push her to new heights. But without a Nidus linking to her her damage just falls short of everything else. Her old problem, now intensified. Before she got some area denial and quite usefull CC. Also gone. But she was a beast in void fissures! Also gone thanks to the new limitations of her 4. And in most cases you would rather use your weapon than any of her skills. Hence the attempt to make her a buffer...Did i mention there are better alternatives for a buffing weapon platform? Many actually. -> Vault aka "being deleted from the active roster". That slot can now better be used for any other frame instead.

[Chill]

Publicado originalmente por Yuki:

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Honestly this seems like you have no idea what you're talking about, like the ravings of someone who's salty they can't afk with her anymore. Her 4 is way stronger than it used to be, I can use her in level 100 content now reliably whereas she used to fall off around 30-40 and then was only useful for her cc, which was mediocre at best compared to actual cc frames. Build efficiency and use her exothermic augment and never run out of energy. You mention she can only target 10 enemies as though world on fire didn't have a limit of 5, it's an upgrade. You mention it needs line of sight, which the system is shoddy I'll give you that, but it just shows more that you want her to be "press4toafk".

It's funny you say she's "stripped of her last niche", what niche was that? Running through level 1-30 content with no effort? News flash: Many frames can do that, it's not a niche. Also I doubt everybody you know "vaulted" her after the rework because everyone I know, aside from people that go "REEEE I can't even afk with her now!", thinks she's in a much better position.

Make a good build then play with her before you go on the forums spouting bs and turning people away from what is now an actually decent and playable frame.

[Yuki]

Publicado originalmente por GottaPayTheTrollToll:

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I didnt afk her but occasionally used her for sortie level content for her CC or also as a carry for medium level defenses, just for fun. She was still among the best for a 20 wave Hydron e.g..
Fire accelerant and builds with actually more of a medium rather than high range where key ingredient to this. And her skill damage decreased and cost increased.
Plus the former limit was per second not per skill use, with the exception of the initial blast that was also higher. People who knew ember played her quite similar how shes apparently supposed to be played now, WoF as a nuke rather than continious field - on and off and preparing a nuke with fire accelerant-and now its even with more range! But even less damage, simple maths, and already her main problem before.

But yes, your name tells what to expect right? *slowclap*

For the faint chance that you where actually honest- play any other DD. And tell again how "decent" she is.

[Chill]

Publicado originalmente por Yuki:

Publicado originalmente por GottaPayTheTrollToll:

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I didnt afk her but occasionally used her for sortie level content for her CC or also as a carry for medium level defenses, just for fun. She was still among the best for a 20 wave Hydron e.g..
Fire accelerant and builds with actually more of a medium rather than high range where key ingredient to this. And her skill damage decreased and cost increased.
Plus the former limit was per second not per skill use, with the exception of the initial blast that was also higher. People who knew ember played her quite similar how shes apparently supposed to be played now, WoF as a nuke rather than continious field - on and off and preparing a nuke with fire accelerant-and now its even with more range! But even less damage, simple maths, and already her main problem before.

But yes, your name tells what to expect right? *slowclap*

For the faint chance that you where actually honest- play any other DD. And tell again how "decent" she is.

You used her for sortie cc but now you can use her for actually being useful in sorties by uh, killing stuff, because her damage isn't trash anymore. "Anyone who knew her" What? It seemed pretty unanimous that she fell off quickly, so what the 2 people who "knew" her were using her as a nuke? I've literally never seen a useful ember passed level 40 content. Yeah sure she was among the best for 20 wave hydron because that's like, level 40 content lol.

If your argument is seriously "me and 3 other people knew how to use her """"properly"""" so she's worse now!" then you're delusional, she's easier to use and way more effective after the rework.

With max efficiency each cast can hit an unlimited amount of targets at a maximum cost of 25 energy, how is that worse than WoF targeting 5 at max and draining more energy the longer you have it up? She is in a much better position, stop being salty and open your eyes.

Damage Reduction, Armor Stripping, actually useful damage > damage that's worthless midway through the star chart and relatively pathetic cc. On top of that, her new passive is actually useful, or did you set yourself on fire in order to nuke sorties or something?

And my name and picture are a reference to It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia, don't point it out like it means anything else, yours is a catgirl for Clem's sake "*slowclap*"

[Uma~Uma]

MESA FTW

[fluff]

Mesa>New Ember>Old Ember