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the game is a power fantasy... I don't understand why people like yourself demand balance. this isn't a game that can be balanced, and it's also not a game of skill. it's a loot grind game, like diablo or PoE. DE's job is to pump out weapons and frames that are interesting for us to use to grind. that is it. the idea that you want to make this in to a "skill" based games to kill hundreds of units at a time is just an oxymoron in itself.
I also don't understand why people compare destiny to warframe. they are two fundamentally different games. one is a loot grinder with the focus on grind, and the other is a FPS looter with the focus on FPS aspects. comparing them is like comparing wow to the witcher. it doesn't work.
no matter how they balance, the mass player base will always lean towards the easiest way to grind, kill, or loot. so what you're trying to say, won't change anything. people will still end up picking the meta frames, which ever the direction the game goes. I think people just need to take warframe for what it is, and not trying to demand for things that it can't do.
You'd think that people *wouldn't* get angry about a teammate bringing Limbo to Excavation - but it's happened more times than I care to remember.
If so, just remember to drop a rift.
Playing Limbo publicly requires that there be a standard that everyone follows or knows. A large portion of public Limbo players are huge inconveniences, that don't use their abilities with consideration. Therefore, no one learns how to play alongside a good Limbo.
Most will assume that a Limbo will only screw them over... they're empirically correct for assuming so. The first thing a limbo player should do if they're playing with randoms is to reduce their range as much as they can.
See - slave to the meta.
why is following the meta bad? I have every frame built/fully modded and I only ever really play rhino, frost, and excal. there is a reason some frames are meta and some are just sub par. calling people slave to the meta, might as well be calling yourself slave to ineffective gaming. cause you know, I always love ressing these none meta frames over and over anything pass level 100 missions....
I suppose that some people when they accumulate a lot of time in game, pretend that the game becomes hardcore just to satisfy them and that some wf are never used again because they do not mind being the top damage at the end of a mission, becoming quite toxic ...
One of the reasons why much of the community prefers to play alone.
They forget that the game is for fun and not to drown in anger if someone wears a wf that you like or not.
While in reality it's not that bad. It can carry you to lvl 100 enemies if modded properly. They were only saying that because that weapon was bad for the railjack enemies themselves (like 95% of weapons are) and couldn't compete with their top meta weapons they use 24/7
I'm ♥♥♥♥ at explaining so you might not have a clue what I'm talking about and I don't blame you.
Meta slaves are also one of the most toxic members of the community. If you don't bring a meta weapon to an eidolon hunt or something then you should be prepared for harassment from their side.
I also play only few frames mostly.
*Rhino for example. Simple, good looking, Stomp is kinda dream skill and iron skin lets me focus on my new weapons and their builds instead of focusing on my skills too much.
I really like straight forward frames. Rhino, Ash, Nekros, Ivara, Wisp.
I know that they are simply good at given task. I also like to bend those frames.
Like taking Ivara to defense Sorties as DeBuffer or building Rhino just to buff my current faw weapon.
I hate frames that are nuking or focused on some sort of AOE damage spamming.
Im just more into weapons.
Other frames are made so they are not so fun to play, they are just overly complex...
Here im wrong. Those frames can be most fun at times to max their specific niche and try it out...
but usually after doing it for some time i want freedom again. So if i randomly get all the parts of one of those niche frames then i give it a go but i wont be farming for those. Even if they are really really strong with specific build and gameplay.... i will be old man when i reach that point in warframe when i feel like im gon do those 6 hour survivals or defense with lvl 300 enemies.
Fast in fast out... get your stuff, grind next thing... tons of things to do.
Warframe lacks in challenging or strategic gameplay but shines with tons of things to do and tons of stuff to get.
So people have to go with frames that make best flow for them in this chaotic galaxy.
EDIT: Warframe is sometimes challenging and strategic but mostly players are in godmode. Also getting suddenly insta killed by something something is not challenging gameplay what i mean and overly simple solution to create overly complex gameplay...like rendering skills and items useless is not what i mean also.
I mean game mechanics that are almost impossible to use in warframe.
So it is what it is.
You can be strong without making game boring and turning away people who would like to play the game and not watch some wanker click 314 and wipe enemies before you can see them.
So it CAN be better than having same gamebreaking warframe in every mission which made my quit rate jump from 4% to almost 8% in just few months as I got tired of boring gameplay that is not good for players, not good for content creators and not good for Warframe.
DE can do better but they won't because it is profitable to milk meta slaves who cannot do anything on their own but rely on broken mechanics and create an "elite" by saying "you cannot do X without Saryn" - well excuse me SirBot with all due respect but YOU can't.
Which creates a lot of toxicity which killed many any aspects of the game, Raids being the most obvious, ESO being stupid and no one wanting to play it, it also breaks Lith and Meso fissures because Saryn is so broken that she kills everything in 100 meter range before they get corrupted.
I got nothing personally against Saryn, for me she is an easy way to explain why broken gameplay ruins the game and pushes players AWAY from the game. She should be the most obvious case of that, at least currently.
Which does not work in real life.
So what balance is? In Warframe, and in laymen terms, it is an expected combat dynamic between number of players (1-4) and number of enemies of certain strength. That makes sense? That is EXPECTED dynamic and you have that dynamic of gamaplay when some broken bs nuke is not around.
Then broken bs nuke comes around and instead of each player meeting 200 enemies let's say per 10 minutes you end up meeting less than 40 because everyone else is dead.
That is a bare definition of broken balance because depending on your luck, you may play this game as intended, or you may end up not really playing and with your contribution not counting towards the end goal of doing the mission. Which makes game boring and makes people leave the game, Warframe is advertised as co-op game and if you cannot experience the game in co-op then it is not a good co-op at this very point in time.
And no one seems to count players who see that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gameplay and they just stop playing game forever, they came in for co-op and IF this level of gameplay we see on average with Saryn being used over 25% was the gameplay we had from the get go, to continue from my definition of balance above, if dynamic of the gameplay was to meet 5x less enemies than you actually do then people would uninstall Warframe after 2 hours of gameplay or less.
It is addicted people that keep playing for it, but no one is enjoying it I can say that. Your warframe looks worse because of it and none are really bad, just they do not get to show anything because they are balanced towards meeting 200 enemies per 10 minutes and when you see only 40 it is dull.
So do not say it is what it is because it can be better and it is not that hard to make it better, DE just refuses to do it which makes their position on the game market stagnant. I hope they notice it before rather than later, because what you see is all the posts from "veterans" saying how game is boring are posts from players who abuse one broken mechanic every day and their addiction does not let them admit that. They will eventually stop playing and DE seems to be capped out on current target audience.
It is easier to make broken game and monetize power creep, it is SO CHEAP to drop an update that just buffs a random weapon to the point of breaking the game and get paid for it.
Much easier than dropping actual content like Railjack.
And DE is obviously really tempted with it, Gram Prime is absolute power creep that made it the best heavy melee in the game with second one being like 7 places behind. Redeemer Prime too, both were absolutely and utterly obviously broken and they did it to milk money so they could sell more Prime Access' of Mesa and Chroma as Wukong and Atlas would not sell at all no matter what you pair them with. And it sold as ♥♥♥♥, but what about people who do not buy prime access? Well we have joy for you, rivens for Gram are disposition 5 and Redeemer rivens are path to insane power so how about that for milking trading market too?
So obviously broken that you could nerf Gram Prime disposition to 3 and price of rivens would not drop more than 20%, and DE did not do that. Why? Well tuning numbers down reduces income, introducing broken numbers brings income up.
So if players were smart to not pay DE for power creep DE would stop doing it, but meta slaves rush to it and you cannot really talk any logic to someone who is a slave of what random youtuber found broken and showcased in a video.
Example being Brozime's video on Condition Overload, with all the respect he missed the point by a country mile and it still echoes, even on my small stream people are like "why you use CO, isn't it crap now?", like what? Nooo, please, use your brain, followers and subscribers do not mean you know everything and you cannot make a mistake, CO is still one of 3 ways of scaling up your weapon, Blood Rush and Weeping wounds being the other and they both rely on combo duration while CO doesn't which lets you make a build that scales and you do not have to cap out on combo, you can just swing it few times. Perfect solution to now having multiple reliable ways to build weapons, sometimes same weapon with whole different dynamics.
They solved melee and problem of having just one possible build with 2 variations. so let's hope they solve 4 spam nuke ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gameplay.
And once again, Ember and Banshee were nerfed after holiday break, why? Because holiday break is when people spend money, so DE went full aggressive with monetization of power creep and broken mechanics and it worked. Same time for nerfs this year? We'll see, Pablo already leaked plans to nerf Saryn, quickly said he did not mean it for sake of good PR before Railjack and holiday payoffs, mean holiday cashouts,.I mean milking the clueless.
And that is what annoys me the most, DE making money out of those who think they have to buy in the power creep and not lifting players instead.
uhh... Alot to take in....:D
I am pretty much on your side with most points. I have been there many times... as i said. i hate AOE nukers too... boring spamm just to grind fast fast.
However i like broken stuff like Redeemer right now. A infinite ammo shotgun with no reload that must have some sort of falloff but it kinda kills everything anyways. I love it. I like when something blows my mind for a while. I dont even think it should be nerfed because it has been amazing to use but im all ready kinda bored of it and missing normal melee weapon.
Railjack however... im still building it but this is even more shady for me. Its sad for me that instead of trying to make new game mode that would give us new approach in gun play, positioning etc. They give us spaceship flying simulator 2020 with a chance to have more coordinated team play?
It feels like dodging the core gameplay problems by adding new gameplay with same problems.
Alot of people give up on warframe because of two things.
NOT because its too complicated to understand but:
1. They dont feel motivated to learn all that stuff since no rewarding skill progression.
In team game they can do nothing at all and win. However when you go defense mission solo with a bow you can easily understand that no matter how skilled you are... you wont win.
Like one of my friends. He asked me to help him because game was too hard (using bow)
i gave him Tigris and he still left because it was too easy.
This gameplay just dont trigger some basic needs, i would say. Like fighting and thinking to get better.
2. Creativity is limited for players.
It keeps only those people who are extremely curious. Those who get exited about all the stuff and all the possibilities and chances to find out something extra ordinary by modding stuff.
Sometimes those people find out that nothing really matters. Good weapons are good, bad are bad and some frames just are overpowered and other are somewhat useless or boring or need SPECIFIC gameplay and build to be effective.
They get bored too once they have learned all the stuff.
So all that is left is to explore more stuff. DE have not found the solution because it is really hard to find.
i could bring up some ideas but who knows how many problems they could cause if actually done.
@ Problem nr 1. Too chaotic gameplay with not much self gains.
Making new game modes that have different gameplay and reward people based on their skills.
Example: Elite Mode. Different planets have its own with different base (Exterminate, Survival etc.) All skills and items are available but only specific actions make enemies drop Elite points that could be another resource for new stuff..
Sniper Elite (Exterminate): Only head shot kills from minimum of 100m with main weapon will trigger the drop chance. Head-shot counter increases drop rate and missing bullets will decrease the counter. Killing unalerted enemies gives double counter points.
Gunslinger Elite: (Survival) In cold, dark and foggy area you have to activate heat generators to survive. Unalerted enemies might walk in to you. Make sure you shoot like a cowboy with your pistols to make sure that their alerted time wont count down your elite points you get from activating heat generators.
And so on.
@Problem nr 2. (Not enaugh creativity with mods and bad weapons stay bad)
Besides Rivens they could add some sort of Core mods for crap weapons that actually change the mehcanics of that weapon. (Not extra damage type or higher fire rate)
Another whole layer of mods that can create "skill a like" effects.
First you need Core enabling item. (Like rivens it has weapon name on it)
Lets say we have some useless Pistol that deals only Electric damage.
Core mods combinations can enable different effects on such weapons like:
* 5% of critical hits can cause
all enemy shields to shatter in the radius and convert them into ally shields for 3 seconds.
* 5% of critical hits can cause
Targeted enemy to take extra damage that is 20% of allied shields in 8m radius
* Killing a shocked enemy will boost Ability Strength by 50% for 3sec. (10sec cooldown)
* Killing a shocked enemy will stop your energy drain for 3 sec. (10 sec cooldown)
And so on. So that bad dps weapons can be used as buffing tools or whatever.
Possible synergies will open up to EXPLORE. (Should not be mentioned in tips)
Those ideas are not solution but they could give something that could add to the gameplay we have now. Since its not really possible to balance a game with hundreds of guns and completely different "heroes" while having main difficulty obtained by enemy numbers.
You dont have to like my ideas but what im saying... there are not much options to actually fix the old gameplay without making someone else angry who likes it now.
I do think it could be a bit more conservative and still very strong in it's own domain, tho CO rework made it bit more grounded, at least until they buffed heavy attack CC.
I do very much agree that this game could do a bit more into rewarding player's skill and progression of that skill than just give toys that have very low learning curve, my grandma has troubles using TV remote but I could make her a pro at doing ESO with Volt - my grandma vs Shroud is a tie there and imho that is a very very bad design. Because player strives towards instant gratification and negates personal progress as a player and then they get bored easily. That hurts Warframe quite a bit and I feel like it is one of major reasons why Warframe planes with it's community.
And it is a weird thing, at DE they all praise Kojima and Kojima mentioned in many, many, MANY interviews that when building his second game he would rather lose 50% of people who liked his 1-st game and transcend the game to a new level than just make game that appeals to 100% people who played the first game. In his words, if you do that there are no reasons to build second game, but if you transcend it then player progresses and new people are drawn to ideas and there is constant progression for designer.
But if you stagnate with it like DE does in department of balancing, you can introduce anything you want, even Railjack does not matter if there are ways to do it without transcending as a player. The very reason Amesha is broken is that let's you do that in Railjack - it let's you complete Railjack without experiencing anything or progressing as a player which is a death for anything they introduce - instant death, it adds 0 value to the game, they could have just added another ESO and it would have same effect if you approach the game like that.
I definitely refused to play the game like that because IF I did then there would be no reason for me to play Rialjack at all, nothing new, same ol same ol.
And it extends too, they make some good warframes and meta slaves max them and just go back to Saryn, Octavia spam and their braindead mode is intact - they do not give effort into playing anything which makes them just sub to their addiction to play, like, you use Saryn for "efficiency" which makes it a slot machine, 5 waves of defense are 3 minutes, so 3 minutes for 1 roll of RNG to see what you get. Compared to doing it with anything that requires actual input from the player it is a way faster and more braindead way of pulling that lever on the slot machine.
And I am very much against THAT design, Warframe is an addictive game and DE should know better how to deal with addicts. Not everyone who plays Warframe is blatantly addicted to it, just saying at the point where you skip gameplay for RNG rolls you should look at your motivations. DE is not entitled to do so and in my eyes they very much prefer to exploit it, not by accident but by design.
And I want them to go beyond such shallow design and transcend them selves as well as the game into a an actual gameplay oriented game and not a race to skip gameplay as much as possible.
Let's do a slight parallel before explaining something. PUBG, no good player complained when 416 was nerfed, it was blatantly the most useful rifle in the game.
Now, who would complain for Saryn nerfs? In that scenario braindead meta slaves are the loudest and the most toxic which leaves the most impression. Players who appreciate it would not leave as much impression because they would say - Thank you for making 40 other warframes a bit more relevant and fun to play and introducing more variety to matchmaker which is saturated with 3 warframes out of which 2 are broken nukers, Saryn and Mesa. (technically Mesa does not nuke, but gameplay suggests that people jump, click 4, do 360 with the mouse and everything is dead in less than a second, she is broken nontheless).
So it is down to DE's perspective on it and their community team to filter what actions of devs do. Would removing of nukers make people leave the game? Yes, some would leave. Would it bring different people? Yes, a whole new market is open when you remove exploitative mechanics, majority of people hate it because it limits your progression as a player - you stagnate, you are my gandma I mentioned above.
It does run deeper, instant gratification is appealing, just look at social media.... So why not make money out of it? Sure, why not - but at the cost of quality, can't have both at the same time.
Good example of it being Ivara, absolutely useless in public squads even tho she is one of the strongest warframes in the game - because she needs you to aim at the head while random plebs with ignis or Shedu already killed everything and not to mention used eye bleaching colors and Mirage on top of it to make it impossible for aiming (not saying it is their goal, they just may like bleach in their eyes, just saying it is the end result, the basic gameplay skill as aiming is negated in Warframe).
As for challenges, DE tried it with Riven challenges and Nightwave, people just skip them, use whatever exploitative mechanic is there. Headshot challenge? More like that bs speargun spam, Scourge.
Scott said it nicely, in current ecosystem it is not possible to make anything a challenge. And he is right. So change the ecosystem, remove exploits? Nah, meta slaves do not want that, they want challenge but broken game as well so they can continue complaining how there is no challenge and DE's community team struggles to interpret that properly.
I think in this aspect the people who are saying it's not worth it, is stating the fact that grinding railjack isn't worth a weapon that's mediocre at best. is it a fun weapon, maybe? butt is it worth all the grind for it? prob not. at this point, it has less to do with meta. more on if it's worth the reward or not. which is the biggest problem of warframe now. time put in vs reward.
what you have to understand is that meta is in every game. the min and maxers will always look for that meta. but also understand that you don't need to use meta to win in most games, but it is good to have that min and max crowd to give you insight to see what is really worth investing in and what is just soso at best.