Why Do Most Meta Builds Have Primed Flow?

[Grey Star, The Rival Defender]

Seriously the amount of builds I see using it randomly just, what makes it so good? Please, tell me.

I HUNGER FOR KNOWLEDGE

[Walrus-Sama]

Originally posted by Grey Star, the Rival Defender:

Originally posted by KIREEKPSO:

I am sorry if you do not see this as a good feedback post, but i can assure you, it is the best possible help you can receive. You are talking about meta, which is a forbiden word for someone still learning the modding system.

For one, I understand how the modding system works.
And for two, I asked this not because I want to use Primed Flow. I asked this question entirely on the basis that Flow and Primed flow made no sense to me, unless one was using Valkyr or Ember's 4 builds. There's no reason to use Flow other than for increased number of abilities, when I could slap a Plains mod on there and get 50% of another regular mod for more power in the ability. For example, why have Primed Flow when I could use another Ability Duration mod and spend less energy over all.

The energy bar is like a stamina bar of sorts for your ablitys, it dicates how many times you can use ablitys before it is depleted.


Lets take an example of Nidus with 50% effciceny using his 1 (60 energy per cast);
(Ignoreing the energy back per enemy hit for the purpose of this example)

With 150 capacity (Rank 30) he can cast it 2 times.
With 300 capacity (Flow) he can cast it 5 times.
With 425 capacity (Primed Flow) he can cast it 7 times

For a Warframe that depends so heavliy on his 1, those extra 3 or 5 casts can be a life saver. Now Nidus is a Warframe that could get away with not using Primed Flow or Flow but it would leave very little room for error, which isn't very fun. There are few other mods that would be better than (Primed) Flow in this example.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Walrus-Sama:

Originally posted by Grey Star, the Rival Defender:

For one, I understand how the modding system works.
And for two, I asked this not because I want to use Primed Flow. I asked this question entirely on the basis that Flow and Primed flow made no sense to me, unless one was using Valkyr or Ember's 4 builds. There's no reason to use Flow other than for increased number of abilities, when I could slap a Plains mod on there and get 50% of another regular mod for more power in the ability. For example, why have Primed Flow when I could use another Ability Duration mod and spend less energy over all.

The energy bar is like a stamina bar of sorts for your ablitys, it dicates how many times you can use ablitys before it is depleted.


Lets take an example of Nidus with 50% effciceny using his 1 (60 energy per cast);
(Ignoreing the energy back per enemy hit for the purpose of this example)

With 150 capacity (Rank 30) he can cast it 2 times.
With 300 capacity (Flow) he can cast it 5 times.
With 425 capacity (Primed Flow) he can cast it 7 times

For a Warframe that depends so heavliy on his 1, those extra 3 or 5 casts can be a life saver. Now Nidus is a Warframe that could get away with not using Primed Flow or Flow but it would leave very little room for error, which isn't very fun. There are few other mods that would be better than (Primed) Flow in this example.

Not sure why he would be at 50% efficiency. He would likely be at 100-175% depending on your build. It is quite rare for a specific build to allow you to drop below 100% and it usually means you have an EV available for that purpose or Arcane Energize sets.

At 175% efficiency all abilities are -75% cost this means even the most expensive 100 energy skills only cost 25 energy, while most skills cost 1-18.5 energy. This means even the lowest energy pools of 150 are more than ample for almost every build. In addition, if you are wanting to be spammy you kinda need substantial efficiency or you will simply not have enough energy regen/energy orbs to keep up without EV/Energize.

Thus Nidus #1 ability would cost 10-40 energy depending on build. As Blind Rage is the only way to go negative eff you should always pair at least one or both eff mods with it unless you have EV/energize.

It is because of this Flow and Primed Flow are largely useless mods, especially now that a lot of the desirable channels/frames are no longer what they used to be.

[Nolo Contendere]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by Walrus-Sama:

The energy bar is like a stamina bar of sorts for your ablitys, it dicates how many times you can use ablitys before it is depleted.


Lets take an example of Nidus with 50% effciceny using his 1 (60 energy per cast);
(Ignoreing the energy back per enemy hit for the purpose of this example)

With 150 capacity (Rank 30) he can cast it 2 times.
With 300 capacity (Flow) he can cast it 5 times.
With 425 capacity (Primed Flow) he can cast it 7 times

For a Warframe that depends so heavliy on his 1, those extra 3 or 5 casts can be a life saver. Now Nidus is a Warframe that could get away with not using Primed Flow or Flow but it would leave very little room for error, which isn't very fun. There are few other mods that would be better than (Primed) Flow in this example.

Not sure why he would be at 50% efficiency. He would likely be at 100-175% depending on your build. It is quite rare for a specific build to allow you to drop below 100% and it usually means you have an EV available for that purpose or Arcane Energize sets.

because you're running blind rage (like any sensible nidus player) for as much power damage as you can without compromising duration and range and dont give a ♥♥♥♥ about efficiency because you have rage and know how to land your first ability?

[Sader]

Primed Flow is mostly useless.

Proper energy management, and use of energy efficiency mods asoloutly trump Prime Flow in almost any build.

[Fishyflakes]

Million times this

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Nolo Contendere:

Originally posted by Xengre:

Not sure why he would be at 50% efficiency. He would likely be at 100-175% depending on your build. It is quite rare for a specific build to allow you to drop below 100% and it usually means you have an EV available for that purpose or Arcane Energize sets.

because you're running blind rage (like any sensible nidus player) for as much power damage as you can without compromising duration and range and dont give a ♥♥♥♥ about efficiency because you have rage and know how to land your first ability?

Blind Rage is actually unnecessary on majority of builds. Many builds may not scale off duration or do so minimally or off range. You can often completely ignore certain stats depending on the build you are going for. Even with Blind Rage you can easily have, and SHOULD, above 95% efficiency. Landing your first ability has nothing to do with it when you are casting a ton (as in the example Walrus tried to indicate where how many times you can cast matters). In addition being able to cast an ability 3-4x vs 1x for a 300-600% increase in actual damage output is far more potent than Blind Rage. Please stop even posting replies to me when you have shown numerous times in the past you have no idea how to play the game effectively.

[Nolo Contendere]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Blind Rage is actually unnecessary on majority of builds.

Nidus and Chroma say hi

Many builds may not scale off duration or do so minimally or off range.

Sticking to nidus (which I'm assuming you meant to do), his 3 and 4 REQUIRE duration to be useful. Minimal duration is only necessary for spamming larva (which you shouldn't really be doing as enemies should be killed by either your 1 or a good AOE weapon) in gimmiky builds that revolve around moving enemies around. You are correct however about range being nice, which is why we dont throw on something like narrow minded.

You can often completely ignore certain stats depending on the build you are going for. Even with Blind Rage you can easily have, and SHOULD, above 95% efficiency.

You're contradicting yourself.

Landing your first ability has nothing to do with it when you are casting a ton (as in the example Walrus tried to indicate where how many times you can cast matters). In addition being able to cast an ability 3-4x vs 1x for a 300-600% increase in actual damage output is far more potent than Blind Rage.

Do you even know how nidus's 1 works? it IS a case of knowing how to land your 1.

Please stop even posting replies to me when you have shown numerous times in the past you have no idea how to play the game effectively.

Please learn what you're talking about before you dismiss people.

[Walrus-Sama]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by Walrus-Sama:

The energy bar is like a stamina bar of sorts for your ablitys, it dicates how many times you can use ablitys before it is depleted.


Lets take an example of Nidus with 50% effciceny using his 1 (60 energy per cast);
(Ignoreing the energy back per enemy hit for the purpose of this example)

With 150 capacity (Rank 30) he can cast it 2 times.
With 300 capacity (Flow) he can cast it 5 times.
With 425 capacity (Primed Flow) he can cast it 7 times

For a Warframe that depends so heavliy on his 1, those extra 3 or 5 casts can be a life saver. Now Nidus is a Warframe that could get away with not using Primed Flow or Flow but it would leave very little room for error, which isn't very fun. There are few other mods that would be better than (Primed) Flow in this example.

Not sure why he would be at 50% efficiency. He would likely be at 100-175% depending on your build. It is quite rare for a specific build to allow you to drop below 100% and it usually means you have an EV available for that purpose or Arcane Energize sets.

At 175% efficiency all abilities are -75% cost this means even the most expensive 100 energy skills only cost 25 energy, while most skills cost 1-18.5 energy. This means even the lowest energy pools of 150 are more than ample for almost every build. In addition, if you are wanting to be spammy you kinda need substantial efficiency or you will simply not have enough energy regen/energy orbs to keep up without EV/Energize.

Thus Nidus #1 ability would cost 10-40 energy depending on build. As Blind Rage is the only way to go negative eff you should always pair at least one or both eff mods with it unless you have EV/energize.

It is because of this Flow and Primed Flow are largely useless mods, especially now that a lot of the desirable channels/frames are no longer what they used to be.

Nidus benifits from lower efficency. Blind Rage is good on him. The energy he gets back per hit is always 25% of the cost of his 1. More expenisve cost (say, 60) will give back 15 energy per enemy instead of 10. Plus the fact 90% Power Strength is very nice on Nidus, and only 2 of his ablity require energy.

[Sceles]

I can't think of any reason why every build would have it but if we look at the benefits:
- It helps you store more energy, which equals to less wasted energy from pickups and Zenurik.
- Fleeting Expertise reduces duration which is not ideal for many frames (Nova, Octavia, etc).
- Fleeting already gives 60% eff so adding Streamline doesn't make a big difference on non-drain builds.
- With Quick Thinking it acts as a secondary health pool and on most frames is able to raise your EHP more than Redirection would.
- If you have Arcane Energize it's more or less the only mod you need for energy management.

So there are quite many. I think the synergy between Arcane Energize is the biggest though, but I doubt that has anything to do with why every META build has it.

[No_Quarter]

also, "meta builds" does not mean those are smart builds.
you build your warframe as you like and to fit your needs. Also, using Primed Flow over Streamline+Fleeting Expertise is just smart modding as instead of taking two slots and hurting duration beyond repair you get to use one slot and all abilities when you desire. This does not apply to all scenarios but majority. Zenurik means 150 energy every 30 seconds.

But to return on builds, I use mixed Equinox build that lets me use all her abilities efficiently and yet I cannot find any build of that sort on warframe builder. Everyone focuses on M&M which means range and range, or sleep where it is duration and range. None of meta builds there allow you to have strong boost on your 3 and have good CC on your Night's 3 with having ability to use M&M or sleep.
And my Equinox build is god tier for me. And I use Primed Flow on that build as I made her so I can use all of her 7 abilities

so it is about making what suits your gameplay, if you run out of energy than you need to increase your battery size, simple as that.
if you can function and get the gameplay you want out of the warframe without it then it's great, you can dedicate that slot to something else.

[Kargor]

Originally posted by Grey Star, the Rival Defender:

There's no reason to use Flow other than for increased number of abilities, when I could slap a Plains mod on there and get 50% of another regular mod for more power in the ability. For example, why have Primed Flow when I could use another Ability Duration mod and spend less energy over all.

I don't know much about the endgame uber-mods, but maybe they already have all the duration mods on there already? Or maybe they don't care about duration because it doesn't help with their main ability? Or maybe duration is capped like the other stuff (yeah, even I know that! I can't even think about hitting those caps, but I know they are there...)

For now, I only have 4 warframes (although another 4 are currently cooking in the foundry), and three of those have a reactor. All those reactor-frames have Flow, simply because it increases the chance of actually having energy when I need it. The one frame that I have that doesn't use Flow is Valkyr, and that's just because she sucks anyway and I'm just levelling her, so I need the mod capacity for survival (and reactors are very rare, so I need to be sure when to drop one into a frame).

[VeritasNumquamPerit]

Valkyr sucks. Good one...

But anyway, some frame with insanely large energy pools probably do not need it but others that cap at 150 (rhino, harrow, wukong, ash...) need it. You can energy manage all you want but with a very large group of enemies you are going to run out.

[ohmTheWatt]

Primed flow+quick thinking will yeild the highest EHP on any high energy pool low armor frame. It's often not about having a larger energy pool it's about using your high energy pool as health.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Nolo Contendere:

Originally posted by Xengre:

Blind Rage is actually unnecessary on majority of builds.

Nidus and Chroma say hi

Many builds may not scale off duration or do so minimally or off range.

Sticking to nidus (which I'm assuming you meant to do), his 3 and 4 REQUIRE duration to be useful. Minimal duration is only necessary for spamming larva (which you shouldn't really be doing as enemies should be killed by either your 1 or a good AOE weapon) in gimmiky builds that revolve around moving enemies around. You are correct however about range being nice, which is why we dont throw on something like narrow minded.

You can often completely ignore certain stats depending on the build you are going for. Even with Blind Rage you can easily have, and SHOULD, above 95% efficiency.

You're contradicting yourself.

Landing your first ability has nothing to do with it when you are casting a ton (as in the example Walrus tried to indicate where how many times you can cast matters). In addition being able to cast an ability 3-4x vs 1x for a 300-600% increase in actual damage output is far more potent than Blind Rage.

Do you even know how nidus's 1 works? it IS a case of knowing how to land your 1.

Please stop even posting replies to me when you have shown numerous times in the past you have no idea how to play the game effectively.

Please learn what you're talking about before you dismiss people.

You listed 2 frames out of what 35 or so? Showing you can't even read and comprehend context.

You don't need insanely high duration. A quick google showed Nidus being used on lv345 enemies with 100% duration and they had 3 mods they could have dropped (one was primed flow, another armored agility, another auger reach). Ample space to slide in Streamline, or Fleeting Expertise + Primed Continuity. Note: This is for lv345 ENEMIES! It still had no issue. Imagine that for actual standard high end content?

Not contradicting myself... You didn't even make sense with that statement. I would say elaborate but stop replying to me when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Aiming abilities isn't hard at all. Do you know how math works?
Example: The ability with +99% Str (keep it simple for math purposes).
Which is stronger? The ability to cast something with 199% power str once vs casting something with 100% 3-4x? 199% vs 300-400%? Now factor in other power str mods and it starts becoming something more like 241% vs 426-568. Add even more power str or a different build and it favors efficiency as having better results even further. MATH DUDE. Your argument is flawed.

Again, the topic is primarily about Primed Flow and even then you only listed 2 frames. Btw, my Chroma does not use Primed Flow. Has no need for it and was able to get into the hundreds just fine and do 20+ mil crits before the massive nerf. Haven't tried him again since but his needing or not Primed Flow will not change.

Originally posted by Walrus-Sama:

Originally posted by Xengre:

Not sure why he would be at 50% efficiency. He would likely be at 100-175% depending on your build. It is quite rare for a specific build to allow you to drop below 100% and it usually means you have an EV available for that purpose or Arcane Energize sets.

At 175% efficiency all abilities are -75% cost this means even the most expensive 100 energy skills only cost 25 energy, while most skills cost 1-18.5 energy. This means even the lowest energy pools of 150 are more than ample for almost every build. In addition, if you are wanting to be spammy you kinda need substantial efficiency or you will simply not have enough energy regen/energy orbs to keep up without EV/Energize.

Thus Nidus #1 ability would cost 10-40 energy depending on build. As Blind Rage is the only way to go negative eff you should always pair at least one or both eff mods with it unless you have EV/energize.

It is because of this Flow and Primed Flow are largely useless mods, especially now that a lot of the desirable channels/frames are no longer what they used to be.

Nidus benifits from lower efficency. Blind Rage is good on him. The energy he gets back per hit is always 25% of the cost of his 1. More expenisve cost (say, 60) will give back 15 energy per enemy instead of 10. Plus the fact 90% Power Strength is very nice on Nidus, and only 2 of his ablity require energy.

I elaborated on why that is not mathematically accurate in the above reply in this post. Nidus can get by with Blind Rage just fine but it depends on playstyle. The reduced efficiency can hurt mobility and damage potential when your build totally has room to keep efficiency from dropping so low.

Originally posted by Sceles:

I can't think of any reason why every build would have it but if we look at the benefits:
- It helps you store more energy, which equals to less wasted energy from pickups and Zenurik.
- Fleeting Expertise reduces duration which is not ideal for many frames (Nova, Octavia, etc).
- Fleeting already gives 60% eff so adding Streamline doesn't make a big difference on non-drain builds.
- With Quick Thinking it acts as a secondary health pool and on most frames is able to raise your EHP more than Redirection would.
- If you have Arcane Energize it's more or less the only mod you need for energy management.

So there are quite many. I think the synergy between Arcane Energize is the biggest though, but I doubt that has anything to do with why every META build has it.

Yup, Arcane Energize works very well with it.

[Nolo Contendere]

Originally posted by Xengre:

You listed 2 frames out of what 35 or so? Showing you can't even read and comprehend context.

You don't need insanely high duration. A quick google showed Nidus being used on lv345 enemies with 100% duration and they had 3 mods they could have dropped (one was primed flow, another armored agility, another auger reach). Ample space to slide in Streamline, or Fleeting Expertise + Primed Continuity. Note: This is for lv345 ENEMIES! It still had no issue. Imagine that for actual standard high end content?

Not contradicting myself... You didn't even make sense with that statement. I would say elaborate but stop replying to me when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Aiming abilities isn't hard at all. Do you know how math works?
Example: The ability with +99% Str (keep it simple for math purposes).
Which is stronger? The ability to cast something with 199% power str once vs casting something with 100% 3-4x? 199% vs 300-400%? Now factor in other power str mods and it starts becoming something more like 241% vs 426-568. Add even more power str or a different build and it favors efficiency as having better results even further. MATH DUDE. Your argument is flawed.

Again, the topic is primarily about Primed Flow and even then you only listed 2 frames. Btw, my Chroma does not use Primed Flow. Has no need for it and was able to get into the hundreds just fine and do 20+ mil crits before the massive nerf. Haven't tried him again since but his needing or not Primed Flow will not change.

efficiency on nidus is irrelevant because as long as you're hitting 4 or more enemies you can spam it until they are dead (again, do you even know how his 1 works?) so you little math problem is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because it isn't a case of using your 199% power strength ability 3-4 times vs using your 241% power strength ability 1-2 times (unless you're only using it on one or two guys, in which case you should be using your gun) as you can use it as long as your targets are still alive (and this is without factoring in rage. it gets even crazier when you factor in his 3.

and yes, you ARE contradicting yourself.

Originally posted by You:

You can often completely ignore certain stats depending on the build you are going for.

Originally posted by Also you:

Even with Blind Rage you can easily have, and SHOULD, above 95% efficiency.

Efficiency is a stat that can be ignored on quite a few frames (not EVERY frame, for sure, but its not as essential as you make it out to be). Just like duration or power strength can be ignored on others (EV trin for the former, irradiating disarm loki for the later)

And yes, I have listed only 2 frames out of 35 (as nit picky as you are, i'm honestly surprised you didn't count 55). This was because I didn't feel like listing EVERY frame that can viably use rage as a source of energy.

Now, back to the topic (my bad for derailing, but you posted something factually incorrect). Primed flow. if you read the thread, you'd see this:

Originally posted by Nolo Contendere:

Outside of one very specific case (primed ravage on the vaykor hek), Primed <mod name here> is generally what you do to maximize your potential and bring it into overkill territory. You can almost always get away with the normal mod in any build that requires a primed mod if you dont have either the primed version or enough forma.

because, again, primed mods are, in general, not necessary. they are there for OVERKILL and the build will not be rendered useless by not including them. any time you would use primed flow (which, as literally everyone here, myself included, has said: is not always necessary), you can get away with a regular flow (and as most of us said, you will in general have enough energy that you dont need even need flow).