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While something like Crit Chance/Crit Damage are only good on Crit weapons, for example. And some weapons can have niche stats that some people view as desirable, like fire rate on an Opticor riven for example.
I don't think removing Damage and Multishot from Rivens is a good idea at all. It doesn't solve anything, and the community uproar would be huge.
There's other stats. Unless a weapon has incredibly low damage, so low of accuracy that Heavy Caliber/Heavy Barrel isn't an option, and next-to-no status/crit chance, there's really no weapon that absolutely must have more +dam +multishot to function beyond what you can get already without Rivens.
Further, a weapon that bad should be brought to the devs' attention for a fix, not left to Rivens to make useable.
I pointed this out. It's because +damage and +multishot are good on everything that they should be removed from Rivens.
The stated purpose of Rivens, according to DE, is twofold. They were intended to bring marginal weapons up to par with more meta equipment and increase the variety in gear that people use - to soften the meta. Their second purpose was to widen the build viability of certain weapons - to give weapons that don't have certain stats the stats they lack, in quantities that would make building around those stats viable. Like being able to take a crit weapon and make a status build around it, if you can find a high-status Riven.
Right now Rivens aren't doing either of those things. For the bulk of non-melee Rivens, they're just another Serration. In some ways the meta has been softened, but that's more because of Riven Disposition rather than Rivens themselves. Rivens have just created a new meta centering around weapons that can become powerful with a Riven in them, solely because they have high disp and and thus stronger Rivens get generated for them. Rivens aren't shoring up weaknesses in these weapons and making them more viable - they're simply cramming enough damage into them that people don't give a damn and use them because they make BIG NUMBERS.
It's like taking a bunch of weapons and saying "this weapon can equip a second serration and split chamber at the cost of just one mod slot." That would make any weapon with that feature instantly meta.
This is why you see Rivens for things like Opticor - it already has high damage, but it also has relatively high disposition. Sure, getting reload speed on a Riven helps it, but that's not why people want Opticor Rivens. They want even more damage out of it, and its disposition is high enough that they can often get reload speed in the bargain. Rivens look at this gun and say, "this gun gets a second Serration and Split Chamber, as well as a Primed Fast Hands, all for one mod slot and about a quarter of the capacity cost" Any gun that got that sort of bonus would become meta, not just Opticor!
I don't particularly like riven system because it's a poor band-aid for weapon balance excuse, however just flat out removing +damage +multishot on every riven is not a smart move, especially for people who are already willing to spend absurd amount of plat and money for it.
They could remove damage and mutishot, and then reset everyone's rivens to 0 rolls, then give
some amount of kuva, like 1-3k per riven. People who spent thousands of plat on rivens forgot to account the one final layer of RNG known as updates, fixes, and changes.
<onlySomewhatRelatedRamble>
Infact i kinda wish it was taken [/strike]one[/strike] [/strike]a couple[/strike] [/strike]a few[/strike] several steps further:
Base Damage mods are gone completely, or have a proportional tradeoff
Multishot Splits damage between generated pellets
IPS/Elemental damage mods don't add more raw damage, just shift the weighting of each damage type and add their associated elements.
Shotguns status chance is the status chance of each pellet
Crit and Status remain bassically as is (maybe status procs could be looked into: magnetic temporarily drops shields, or maybe causes weapons to jam, puncture creates a mini sonar/detect vulnerability effect, others are largely okay).
Enemy health, shields, and armour rebalanced accordingly
A Lot of this is the reason "mandatory mods" exist. Unfortunately "fixing" it requires an overhaul's worth of changes.
</onlySomewhatRelatedRamble>
Most of this, actually, was part of the proposed Damage 3.0 rework that has yet to materialize. In particular, Base damage mods would be worked into weapons themselves as they levelled (a Rank 30 weapon would effectively have a max-rank Serration built right into it at no mod slot or capacity cost) and base damage mods like Serration would be eliminated entirely.
Unfortunately, that was a long time ago - before Rivens, even before mods like Primed Pressure Point and Primed Point Blank (which DE later admitted to being a mistake).
Unfortunately, since Rivens exist and now we're seeing +damage and +multi on set-effect mods, it would seem that Damage 3.0 is dead in the water. After all, if they're actively working on an overhaul of the damage system, why would they create mods that are part of what they have openly admitted as the problem with the existing damage system? It'd just mean more work for them down the road.
To bring things back on topic, this is one of the reasons why I'd like to see +damage and +multi shot removed from Rivens. Not only is it preventing them from serving their intended purpose, but it's also contributing to a growing problem with the existing damage system. The more +damage and +multishot mods you make, the more the 'mandatory mods' problem grows. This is especially onerous with Rivens because they're tied to what's effectively a slot machine, and even an existing good Riven could get nerfed at any time if the disposition of the related weapon gets lowered. No other kind of mod can spontaneously lose capability unless specifically acted upon by a dev.
Rivens are volatile, problematic, and not serving their stated mission goals. If I can't see them removed, then at least I'd like them brought in line with their mission statement. Removing +damage and +multishot would go a long way to doing that, outrage be damned.
The positives should be kept in check with the negatives.
Can't dull one edge of a double-edged sword then sharpen the other
Under those bad players you have kids with limited knowledge of game mechanics who just enjoy gaming and you have people who work a lot and play games to relax - they cannot give good output. You also have absolute idiots who reject to learn mechanics and do basic math.
Simple math, like +x rate of fire equalls +y dmg if x adn y are in some sort of relation.
And in terms of rivens it works too, just not for every weapon.
So I would rather bet that players have limited vision of how each stat preforms in battle and how some subtle change like reduced reload time or punchtorugh can be a game braker that opens up new approach to a weapon.
Like for example I've made slow one-punch Mewan crit zaw.
rolled riven like 20 times and all rolls were bad, wanted cc+cd... then I've got +65% attack speed with 2 physical dmg boosts. Game breaker. Now I get to reach 2x combo faster and get those red crits way faster which increases my DPS insanely and makes weapon easier to work with. Tho I have to change my approach and be more aggressive with fast hits.
Well not fast, weapon now has like average attack speed with strong hit. Is that the same as slow attack speed with even stronger hit?
So I would say rivens are fine for the most part, there are some issues but nothing big, most of it comes from limitations of design, I'd rather say it is the majority of players who thing raw is better have wrong perceptions
Twin Grakatas with -recoil is basically an unlocked weapon, it has INSANE dps but dragged down with recoil and slow reload so you get weapon for fast bursts fo damage. But with -recoil that weapon can do a lot more - weapon LOSES dps by recoil and by reload. Compensating that helps, boosting dmg helps but it still makes some painfull moments.
I do not mind majority of meta blind people will listen to some youtubers who say anyhting to make it sound viral for views, there are 3 types of good rivens:
1) boosting good stuff about the weapon
2) compensating for weapon's drawbacks
3) mix
I'd say mix is the best option as I stated in post where you quoted me, if melee riven has +combo duration then you do not have to spare 1 mod slot and use Drifting Contact - you can use strong damage mod. So in a sense, if riven has like +attack speed on levels of primed fury and has +10s of combo and some random elemental - it is a good riven as it opens up 2 places where some of standard mods are and has slight boost.
Now, in that place you put like Buzz Kill and Maiming Strike - in a way, you can imagine like your riven has +slash +elemental +cc on slide and your weapon has 2 slots taken for standard mods Primed Fury and Drifting Contact. So, where is the problem? those are strong stats, such rivens are few hundreds of plat for any melee
Problem is in player's head, lack of creativity, lacky of interest in actual mechanics, they read random post by random player or see some youtube video and they buy it without questioning.
People like to see those 3 things stacked, cc+cd+dmg and in some cases of high disposition rivens and some meta plays it probably plays out better but for the most part it is pretty much on the player how he wants to play his weapon. How often you need to land 2 gazilions of damage with opticor? can I increase RoF and hit 2 times for 1 gazilion damage with 50% faster charge time? which one is better?
NONE, it comes down to a player, damage adds ONE-SHOT ability which sure is a boner, but we all love comfortable weapons that lack drawbacks. Example: Akstiletto Prime - 0 drawbacks.
So it may not be popular, but there are people who appreciate that and making non-meta weapon preform godly just because you compensated for drawbacks is fun.
Because in most cases meta is idiot proof - huge alpha weapons are "better" because you do not have to land 3 consecutive shots, aka rely on skill.
In most cases you will have window for those 3 shots.
in any case, you can mod a riven for your taste and make weapon work, let idiots haave their dream that dmg on a riven is life.
don't get me wrong, I think it is astrong but I do not think it is always the answer, and it is fun to play weapons that force you to have different approaches.
Some people like to play same weapon over and over, even with different weapons.
Any form of damage on a riven is appreciated but it is not 100% requirement, at least not for me, to make a weapon viable to end-game
Here's the thing - your example is a melee Riven. Melee weapons use a completely different modding theory than ranged weapons of any kind, and actually are more innately mod-friendly than ranged weapons. There are much fewer 'mandatory' mods beyond (Primed) Pressure Point, and many more viable builds for various combinations of stats. Attack speed, too, as well as the specifics of a weapon's stance, can affect how it's modded - a stance that is slow, on a slow weapon, benefits a lot more from mods that increase your combo window and attack speed. Melee weapons can be modded for Status w/Condition Overload, Crit, Combo, made into Life Strike tools, Maiming Strike builds, and more. Ranged weapons have much, much less build variety.
Notice how, in all of my examples, I scrupulously avoided melee Rivens, because honestly, they're the best balanced out of all Rivens that currently exist. Whether it's because of their own merits or the fact that melee is modded so fundamentally differently than any other weapon is hard to say, but facts is facts - of all Rivens, Melee Rivens are closest to meeting their design goals.
Here's the thing, and the big problem with ranged weapon Rivens. Let's look at a real, existing Opticor Riven. I'm not even going to use the best Opticor Riven I've ever seen. Just a solidly above-average one.
https://i.imgur.com/zvq5Adf.png
3.3 punchthrough, +66.7% fire rate, +192.9% damage, -54.7% zoom, for 18 capacity and Naramon polarity.
Let's compare that to existing mods.
192.9% damage is 27.9% stronger than Serration, which is 14 capacity and Madurai polarity.
66.7% fire rate is 6.7% stronger than Speed Trigger, which is 9 capacity and Madurai polarity.
3.3 punchthrough is 1.2 punchthrough better than Metal Augur, which is 15 capacity and Naramon polarity.
Negative Zoom is a harmless negative stat.
This one Riven mod is better than three regular mods combined, and costs less than half as much to equip as those three mods. More importantly, it stacks with all of the mods quoted above.
This mod invalidates the need for Speed Trigger and Metal Augur, if you intended to use those in the first place, and will account for more than half of your base damage bonus if used alongside Serration. This is pretty much half of an entire build crammed into one mod.
I'm sorry, but any weapon that can get that kind of bonus out of a single mod is going to become meta, no matter how crap it is initially. It really doesn't even matter what the initial weapon's stats are - so long as they have some pretense of competency, this mod alone will pretty much do the rest. Heck, you could strip out the punchthrough and fire rate and it'd still be amazing - like Heavy Caliber but better and without devastating your accuracy.
And it's not even close to the best Riven mod possible for this weapon!
This is not a case of a Riven mod making a bad weapon viable - not that Opticor was truly a bad weapon prior to Rivens. It just wasn't used because it was an extreme weapon, and required sacrifices in modding for general use, and the situations it was good at without those sacrifices were rare. This is a case of a Riven mod supplanting the need for any creativity in modding. You throw that Riven in, alongside a cookie-cutter build, and it packs so much power into 18 cap and one mod slot that the rest of the stuff you put in besides Serration and Split Chamber barely matter. If you do put the thought into the build to make it as strong as it can be, it overpowers any weapon without a similar or better Riven.
That's the problem with Rivens as they stand. They do not build off what a weapon already has except in the most basic sense imaginable. On high-disp weapons, they supplant whatever stats a weapon has with their own, so that you pick a high-disp weapon based on the Riven you can get for it, not based on the weapon itself.
On lower disposition weapons, it's not quite so bad because Rivens for these weapons aren't quite so extreme. Even so, they suffer some of the same problems. Take a look at this:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/T1mWeCQjuEk/maxresdefault.jpg
+35.7% crit chance, +52.9% multishot, +39.9% crit damage on the Hek, 18 polarity naramon
That's about...
Little less than half of a Hell's Chamber mod (120% multishot, 15 capacity madurai)
Little over a third of a Blunderbuss mod (90% crit chance, 9 capacity madurai)
Little over half a Ravage mod (60% crit damage, 9 capacity madurai)
Doing a little rough math, half a hell's chamber is 7.5 capacity, a third of a Blunderbuss is 3 capacity, and half of a Ravage is 4.5 capacity. 7.5+3+4.5 = 15 You're cramming about 1.3 mods' worth of bonuses into one mod slot, for just 3 more capacity than they'd be worth if you could get 'em individually. Plus all of these bonuses stack with bonuses from their regular equivalents.
This is a Riven for a one-disposition weapon, and one already known for having one of the highest-possible multishot totals in the game.
So, you see... ranged weapon Rivens are kinda brokenly-powerful even for weapons that have poor disposition, and it's base damage and multishot that's the biggest offender in that regard. Remove them, and picking a Riven for a weapon becomes much more context-sensitive, since you have to build off stats that the weapon is better at if you want to min-max.
in some cases of non-melee weapons cc+cd+dmg is not the best option tho it is the most noob proof. Lots of examples for that, gave example for Twin Grakatas
You cannot remove those things, people will find other way to cheese it and make it easy.
Opticor rivens are meta for Eidolon, so is Lanka, and more dmg means better ause no other stat matters
It is not like on market for other weapons, been trading them a lot, got 90 on me... meta is limiting people but there are people who know how to make use of other good stats.
And it is not unballanced, ofc good riven is better than the bad one.
Making Rivens utility only would be a worst thing that happened to Warframe ever.
I am 100% against removing stats like dmg and ms, it needs to be there and RNG is what decides stats of the riven so you kinda gamble...
what you said is a really bad suggestion, it would be better to remove rivens than to do this.
obvious point, dmg is strong, gg, we want damage and I cannot see it being bad for the game.
Removing Rivens entirely would also be acceptable to me. I just realize that it's unrealistic to ask for, and this is a much better option to bring Rivens into an acceptable state.
Just because we want damage doesn't mean that it's healthy for the game. Nor does it mean there aren't better ways to get it.
That's what I'm advocating - better ways to get it. Ways that actually respect the versatility of the modding system and the variety of weapons available to use it on. Modding for things like crit, status, elemental damage, fire rate, reload speed, individual physical damage types, and damage versus specific factions are all better than adding flat base damage increases. They require you to either build off what the weapon is good at, or specifically counteract its flaws. These are things that take thought and consideration, and can be done several ways depending on how the numbers fall.
Adding damage and multishot is just circumventing a weapon's weaknesses by pumping so much damage out that the weaknesses of the weapon don't even matter. What's the point of having a modding system, if the only thing you can realistically do with it is cram as much base damage and multishot in as possible on top of an already-cookiecutter build?
I want options to get my damage, thanks. If Rivens helped that, instead of helped ruin that, I'd have a lot less of a problem with them. The modding system is full of false options as it stands. We don't need Riven mods making them worse.