Wukong Rework Overview and Evaluation:

[Shard of Manus]

There are a lot of threads consisting of simply "it's good" or "it's bad" and little to no explanation as to why. So, here's a quick overview of the rework and my opinion.

Previously Wukong's utility was limited to Tank, Melee DPS, and a good Conservation Support with Enveloping Cloud.

1) Iron Jab. Funny, but ultimately a terrible ability. Small AoE, short and impractical CC that sends enemies flying (impossible to shoot crit spots reliably and knocks out of melee range). Damage scaled terribly. Iron Vault lost viability with the Contagion nerf, and is poor.

2) Cloudwalker. Drain, infinite duration, almost totally pointless given he's immortal anyway. Enveloping Cloud was decent and could be used to decent effect in various situations - especially easy conservation (with allies).

3) Defy. The big outcry. Total immortality with Hunter Adrenaline. AFK ability.

4) Primal Rage. Smacky stick, good damage, shame they 'fixed' Gladiator mod stacking. Reliable DPS.

Before Wukong was a dull frame. He had melee (which is outclassed by many melee weapons anyway), and he had AFK invulnerability. Very little interactivity, and his 1 and 2 were absolutely terrible to mediocre in most situations.

Now:

1) Celestial Twin. Creates a copy of Wukong that acts like a spectre. Uses melee when you range, and range when you melee. AI sucks, it is tethered to the player on a very short leash, damage scales terribly (does less damage than you do with your weapons). Has decent HP, distracts enemies, uses Primal Rage when you do (and actually does good damage with it).

2) Cloudwalker. Heal yourself as you move, much faster animation, much faster movement speed. Tiny duration, makes Enveloping Cloud useless.

3) Defy. Absorb incoming damage over a short duration, smack nearby enemies based in damage absorbed, gain armour up to 1500 based in damage absorbed. Damage scales terribly and sucks vs armoured enemies, armour cap is low compared to other frame's damage mitigation abilities.

4) Still Primal Fury. New move sets are fine. DE please kill auto-block, it's the worst change ever. Melee 3.0 needs attention.

------

With the rework Wukong's utility has gone down, but his fun-factor has gone up imo. I just think they need to balance him a little so he's not such a poor addition for an actual team. He's almost totally self-centred, and Enveloping Cloud sucks now that it's stuck on such a tiny duration, so he can't even bring team-wide invisibility to the table (within range). He doesn't scale well either.

It still needs work. I hope DE aren't done with it, but it's headed in the right direction I think. I think Enveloping Cloud should be changed to include team-healing as well, since that ability now heals. Celestial Stomp should be directed, not just done on the spot since the AI sucks for the Twin. Defy should buff nearby allies with armour too I think. This way at least he can bring some support.

I'm not sure if Celestial Twin works like Equinox's clone or like a spectre, but if it doesn't use mods in weapons... it should. At the moment the damage is awful.

[V.V.]

I like the short tether of the clone, I prefer they stay close and not constantly running into nulli's now that they seem to have fixed them disabling the clone. Plus it keeps them from getting stuck and forcing me to run across hells half acre to get them to teleport to me.

The AI seems fine to me, but I've played other games with worse companion AI. Though I will agree their damage is only good from low to mid level and then dips too low for higher lvls... the augment for it seems meh at best but I've only used it a few times before realizing that nothing significant was happening. Honestly think the augment should buff the clone but that might just be me.

[Hawk]

I've found that the AI doesn't actually do what DE said he would do, IE, if you melee he switches to ranged, you switch to ranged he'll melee. So far over a dozen matches using him the clone IS an exact clone, with no significant deviation from that, he copies you every single time.

[No_Quarter]

Celestial Twin uses exact copy of your weapons and all the mods that are on it, confirmed by DE Pablo on stream that happened prior to the release.

Wukong is way more fun now, tho I kinda wish he had some team oriented abilities as cloud augment is trash... I do not see why his 3 is not a team ability with affinity range, let team mates get 50-100% of the armor buff.

Also he could assign his twin to help a team mate by clicking 1 on that team mate, it is not something that is super useful but it can be neat in some scenarios.

Don't think he should heal allies, at least not without sacrificing one mod slot for an augment.
And even that with huge limitations.

[Shard of Manus]

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

Also he could assign his twin to help a team mate by clicking 1 on that team mate, it is not something that is super useful but it can be neat in some scenarios.

Don't think he should heal allies, at least not without sacrificing one mod slot for an augment.
And even that with huge limitations.

A fine idea. Also, Enveloping Cloud us his augment for Cloud Walker, that's what I was suggesting.

[GunsForBucks]

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

...snip.... I do not see why his 3 is not a team ability with affinity range, let team mates get 50-100% of the armor buff.

...snip...

That could lead to some crazy stacking unless they put a limit on it.


side note - I wouldn't pick at any healing abilities until they finish the melee rework and work out what channeling is going to end up <supposedly removed but work in progress, so who knows>

[Cthulhu's Monocle]

Really hoping they do a massive rework of this rework or rollback things to the way they were. Not finding this new build fun in any way and I find it extremely limiting compared to original WuKong.

[Donitsi]

He is so much fun now. I have not touched him for 2 years but now his fun factor indeed jumped through the roof. Augment for his clone is a lot of fun in Excavation and Onslaught with Range build. Augment also works as excellent panic button or if you need moment to revive teammates... I like range builds on many frames too much.

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

Also he could assign his twin to help a team mate by clicking 1 on that team mate, it is not something that is super useful but it can be neat in some scenarios.

Heyyy, 10 points for that idea!

[No_Quarter]

Originally posted by GunsForBucks:

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

...snip.... I do not see why his 3 is not a team ability with affinity range, let team mates get 50-100% of the armor buff.

...snip...

That could lead to some crazy stacking unless they put a limit on it.

Augment that shares 50% of it over the affinity range is not broken, Oberon reaches those numbers with ease with unlimited range.

Originally posted by Cthulhu's Gribbly Monocle:

Really hoping they do a massive rework of this rework or rollback things to the way they were. Not finding this new build fun in any way and I find it extremely limiting compared to original WuKong.

I like how you explained your point of view in depth and totally didn't ask people to read your mind what you liked more.

10/10 for the input

[Watermelons]

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

Wukong is way more fun now, tho I kinda wish he had some team oriented abilities as cloud augment is trash... I do not see why his 3 is not a team ability with affinity range, let team mates get 50-100% of the armor buff.

Good idea. It could be a range between 50% to 100% depending on how close you are to the Wukong. Maybe less than 100%, since it caps out at 1500 which is p l e n t y even for frames with 15 base armor. 25% to 50% maybe.

Also he could assign his twin to help a team mate by clicking 1 on that team mate, it is not something that is super useful but it can be neat in some scenarios.

In general, DE needs to work on more and better ways to manage AI companions. Venari worked alright but kind of lacks visual feedback for when she's working well. Celestial Twin would be great though for this, considering how close he sticks by you, and all their designed behaviors for his weapon swapping.

Don't think he should heal allies, at least not without sacrificing one mod slot for an augment. And even that with huge limitations.

If only the current Cloud Walker augment didn't exist. Or at the very least, if only it didn't behave like Shade/Huras' cloak. Even if it suffered a base duration reduction so that it wouldn't work better than Ash's Smoke Cloud augment. But honestly, I agree. Don't think it should heal, it's good enough as a self/companion heal, not only the Celestial Twin but your own companions when you've got Link Health.

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

Originally posted by Cthulhu's Gribbly Monocle:

Really hoping they do a massive rework of this rework or rollback things to the way they were. Not finding this new build fun in any way and I find it extremely limiting compared to original WuKong.

I like how you explained your point of view in depth and totally didn't ask people to read your mind what you liked more.

10/10 for the input

Don't listen to him, he's just a troll trying to act like old Wukong wasn't just about casting Defy and forgetting it. Just like the Ash Bladestorm change, just like Banshee Soundquake augment, just like LoS changes on frame abilities ( excluding Saryn, because DE ) and melee.

[No_Quarter]

Originally posted by Something Something Watermelons:

Don't listen to him, he's just a troll trying to act like old Wukong wasn't just about casting Defy and forgetting it. Just like the Ash Bladestorm change, just like Banshee Soundquake augment, just like LoS changes on frame abilities ( excluding Saryn, because DE ) and melee.

it is plain obvious that only thing that pre-rework Wukong was better at was requiring less brain to stay alive.

I went full sarcastic on him because such players who complain about rework being bad are not even able to say it properly that pre-rework was broken in a sense, they will go to great lengths to say how good it was without mentioning that all they care is a broken mechanic they can use with their brains off (or fully on, I don't judge).

Just let few buffs happen, then Saryn will go down. She has to, Steve mentioned nerfs that will make a lot of people mad and I have my popcorn ready for all the whining that will come with it, and people will cry how DE is not into fun while them clicking 1 and 4 deprives entire team of anything resembling fun. That includes Saryn.

Hoping she will require LoS at least for her 1, range has to go down and I would even reduce the energy she has, 850 or so is just begging you to spam spam and spam without ever turning on your brain.

[W.A. the Anum]

"Utilizing years of Tenno feedback, we’ve updated Wukong’s stats and abilities to make him more relevant to Warframe in 2019. Read on to learn the scope of the changes, which includes a preview of our upcoming Melee 3.0 Simplified Combo System changes in his Primal Fury ability!"

the problem i have is that wukong felt and feels now, as you said, self-centred. he doesnt really support the team somehow and his "ulti" doesnt feel as much useful as other melee-class frames like excaliburs which is for sure better and pretty much helps cleaning up a room pretty fast and easy.

I tried the new wukong and he felt more "boring" to me as he was before. i would even say he kinda misses the "impact" if you compare him with other frames.

For that, look at another, nearly forgotten frame, namely Atlas.
Atlas can "slide" around, smashing enemys like "one punch man", turn his foes into stone (stun them), gets passive armor if he smashes said stoned enemys, can call rumblers for help in the fight, places walls which blocks enemys to walk thru smaller hallways.

Atlas is sure a tank and should be played Melee but his support abilitys and passive one helps everyone out, not just himself.

I think, since i guess he IS the next prime, Atlas is a very good melee frame and, again, does a way better job then the new wukong does, again. sad but true.

[No_Quarter]

Originally posted by W.A. the Anum:

I think, since i guess he IS the next prime, Atlas is a very good melee frame and, again, does a way better job then the new wukong does, again. sad but true.

that is just like your opinion man, far from truth.

Celestial Twin is what you don't take into account, free damage and agro, Atlas is way more clunky when it comes to gaining armor and healing him self.

So it is hard to compare like his 4 to Excalibur's 4 because they feature different set of abilities. Excalibur does not have another Excalibur running around doing damage, Excalibur relies on life strike while Wukong has healing on demand, Wukong is way more tanky so if you compare the set of cards they are kind equal. Excal has some CC...
Wukong is better all-round, Excalibur has a better 4. But you should build his stick really as it is quite strong and certainly a heavy hitter.

Atlas is just slow, clunky to gain buffs and heals, one punch makes you sacrifice your melee build, Rumblers scale like poop does.... Really hard to call him more viable than Wukong now, on demand heals, on demand armor, you can use all weapons and all the builds and he has 1 permanent "rumbler" that requires only one cast of the ability for 1/4 of the energy cost
So all in all I'd bet on Wukong right now.

I am not saying Wukong is the best now, he is missing synergies with allies, but I am just arguing the way you compared things to show that it was not a valid way to compare it - you could just say "I still like Atlas more" and that would be okay.

For one, I am glad Wukong is not like Excalibur, brainless melee spam in general directions is just a very bad gameplay and that is all you see from anyone who re-visits Excalibur at the end-game.

[Watchman]

One notes Wukong coming across as "self-centered" sounds pretty faithful to the original who... wasn't really that big of a team player sort of monkey, if memory serves.

[Azrielus]

I still think that Wukong is a boring a**hole. Change my mind.

[W.A. the Anum]

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

Originally posted by W.A. the Anum:

I think, since i guess he IS the next prime, Atlas is a very good melee frame and, again, does a way better job then the new wukong does, again. sad but true.

that is just like your opinion man, far from truth.

Celestial Twin is what you don't take into account, free damage and agro, Atlas is way more clunky when it comes to gaining armor and healing him self.

So it is hard to compare like his 4 to Excalibur's 4 because they feature different set of abilities. Excalibur does not have another Excalibur running around doing damage, Excalibur relies on life strike while Wukong has healing on demand, Wukong is way more tanky so if you compare the set of cards they are kind equal. Excal has some CC...
Wukong is better all-round, Excalibur has a better 4. But you should build his stick really as it is quite strong and certainly a heavy hitter.

Atlas is just slow, clunky to gain buffs and heals, one punch makes you sacrifice your melee build, Rumblers scale like poop does.... Really hard to call him more viable than Wukong now, on demand heals, on demand armor, you can use all weapons and all the builds and he has 1 permanent "rumbler" that requires only one cast of the ability for 1/4 of the energy cost
So all in all I'd bet on Wukong right now.

I am not saying Wukong is the best now, he is missing synergies with allies, but I am just arguing the way you compared things to show that it was not a valid way to compare it - you could just say "I still like Atlas more" and that would be okay.

For one, I am glad Wukong is not like Excalibur, brainless melee spam in general directions is just a very bad gameplay and that is all you see from anyone who re-visits Excalibur at the end-game.

You can take celestial twins and compare it with Atlas Rumblers, done. Next to this those DOES heal atlas if those die.

It sure is hard to compare "this frames ability with another frames one" but i was just using a simple sample and i was going only with Melee frames. I could have gone with another frame but i used Atlas since is, next to wukong, somewhat sitting in the shadows.

Going forward with the stuff you said, yes, Wukong can somewhat heal himself and is "somewhat" tankyier then excalibur but excalibur has cc and range in all his ability which wukong doesnt "really" have. Wukongs 4, his staff, is not like titanias 4 which let her dodge at least 50% of all attacks nor is it like valkyrs 4 which makes her invisible and gives her lifestrike. I just used this 2 as sample coz those use also their own weapons which are again better then wukongs and valkyr is also again another melee frame which does again a way better job then wukong, even with light support abilitys (war cry).

Atlas, as i said is pretty good if you have the right build on him and i wouldnt say hes "clunky" more like that he "fits into his role" as what he is, a heavy tank frame with rock hard fists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEPWNLLS7Q

His punches have really heavy impact on not only one but crowds on enemys, pushing him forward with great combos and in melee, with the right weapon, hes also a masive beast without losing a ability coz of his passive and well timed stuns. and as you said "I am not saying Wukong is the best now, he is missing synergies with allies," thats what i was saying. i sure do like atlas more but wukong missing the impact - as frame and support. i could go on and just name some melee frames which have way more impact for the team and still do a good job as melee frame, if you want. I dont wanna say with that "they are all better and i dont like them as much as wukong" but more like as samples so you see what wukong is lacking of.

- Rhino can buff the teams damage and has a ult which is albe to stun a large area of enemys, making them easy to kill. He also has a armor on call plus a dash ability which can push him very fast and quick forward.

- Valkyr, as said already, can stay invinibile and pretty much "unkillable" if you time her 4 and melee damage very well. she can also buff her teams speed with her war cry and stuns/confuse enemys plus a zipline ability which makes her look like spiderman and fast her up way more.

- Excalibur can also stun enemys in a smaller area and has range attacks, attacking more targets at ones. with his 4 he pretty much is able to clean up large areas and defending crowds of enemys with an ease. the only lack he has sure is support abilitys but then again, his abilitys feels more helpful to the team coz of his range overall.

- Garuda is able to give herself a shield and stores enemy damage for a a heavy burst aoe attack bomb. she also can "turn an enemy" (i would more say create) into a healing place for not only her but her team which heals really a lot over time. she also can, if she has the health, get energie on call and a ulti which also effects a large area, stunning & damaging enemys over time.

Sure, those are just "my opinion" but then again, as the OP already said, i quote: "He's almost totally self-centred, and Enveloping Cloud sucks now that it's stuck on such a tiny duration, so he can't even bring team-wide invisibility to the table (within range). He doesn't scale well either."

the frames i counted up were, again, just samples but they have some in common

- they are (or should be played as) melee frames somewhat with abilitys mostly build around or for melee.

- they have either somewhat of cc or support abilities which either buffs or helps the team with either enemys or making the fight easier in another way.

and the last counted up is sadly something which pretty much lacks wukong right now, and thats the sad part...