Vauban has no abilities prove me wrong

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Edit:

Premise 1. All warframes abilities depend on important hardware in the warframe to work
Premise 2. Vauban's "abilities" are not dependant on his warframe (they come from his grenades)
Premise 3. If an ability does not depend on the hardware of the warframe it is not an ability

Conclusion: Vauban has no abilities as his abilities do not depend on his warframe


Edit 2: Vauban lore wise makes no sense and is unnecessary. For example

If each warframe is capable of doing crazy things like creating fire and opening vortexs with out the need of external material, what is the point of making vauban need grenades to use his abilities? why cant vauban just create the vortex, or grid wall thing, or bounce pad. Why does vauban take the extra unnecessary step of using a grenade if it isnt because vauban himself is incapable of doing this? Why create a warframe that can not preform the same function of the much smaller grenade. Why isnt this built into vauban?

Edit: 3
In short, the use of external device to do a function renders the entire warframe useless, as there is no point in creating an entirely new warframe, why not just make one warframe and have it use the very same devices. why even waste resources in research and development, when the only important part is the grenade.

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

By your premises, Vauban does have abilities because his grenades are his hardware no other warframe has his hardware. His systems are programmed to change the grenade type as we see in his 2 ability. The grenades are pulled the same, look the same, but when he throws it his system change the grenade hardware based on user input. That change is dependant on vauban's systems.

I disagree because its not directly the hardware of the warframe rather its the hardware of the grenade. Other wise you could call any weapon an ability

As for how he aquires his grenades, there arent any lore to support it which is partially why im complaining. If in the lore they stated he uses the void or something to constantly produce grenades i would call it an ability.


but this was a waaay better response

[Criticalfire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Diposting pertama kali oleh About a Million Watermelons:

I'm still a bit annoyed that DE's "rework" for him ended up being as it is. I would have ♥♥♥♥♥♥' loved some turrets ( the Air Support one is alright I guess, but you need to have Xiphos, and that's a nightmare in itself to get ), and support drones. Expand his role of "crowd control" which requires targets to walk into his abilities, and truly make him feel like an engineer, not just a guy with a clown car of a pocket holding a bunch of different grenades.

His Tesla should merge with his 2nd, his 2nd's Shred and Bounce should be combined into one grenade, Tripwire should connect to walls the same way Ivara's zipline arrows work, with all these grenades in the 2nd ability be moved to the 1st.

His 2nd becomes turrets he can throw, including a standard bullet-firing turret, a flamethrower turret, an electric turret that stuns enemies similar to Volt's 4th but single target hit, and a trophy system type turret that zaps rockets and similar projectiles out of the air.

From there, move his Bastille over to 4, make 3 throw out drones that do various things. A shield osprey type drone, a Medic drone that flies around to heal downed teammates ( not instantly ), a drone that fires at enemies as well if you want to have two things deployed shooting, and some other 4th drone to buff teammates in some way.

4th would be Bastille and Vortex, switchable. Since they do the opposite things but are both his most used grenades. It would mean Bastille would be more expensive, but w/e. He has plenty of energy.

Only one drone and turret could be out at the same time.

This actually sounds pretty cool

And yet my suggestions get no acknowledgement from you talk about bias.

As for the drones and turret idea I think that would be great since Vauban is based off of a french tactician whose focus was on defense. However the targeting ai is a bit sloppy maybe if DE refined ai targeting these would be fine additions.

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

And yet my suggestions get no acknowledgement from you talk about bias.

As for the drones and turret idea I think that would be great since Vauban is based off of a french tactician whose focus was on defense. However the targeting ai is a bit sloppy maybe if DE refined ai targeting these would be fine additions.

Well first. I dont recall saying anything about bias.

Secondly I didnt respond to it, because i was responding to other arguments made by you and others

[Criticalfire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

By your premises, Vauban does have abilities because his grenades are his hardware no other warframe has his hardware. His systems are programmed to change the grenade type as we see in his 2 ability. The grenades are pulled the same, look the same, but when he throws it his system change the grenade hardware based on user input. That change is dependant on vauban's systems.

I disagree because its not directly the hardware of the warframe rather its the hardware of the grenade. Other wise you could call any weapon an ability

As for how he aquires his grenades, there arent any lore to support it which is partially why im complaining. If in the lore they stated he uses the void or something to constantly produce grenades i would call it an ability.


but this was a waaay better response

But the lore does say all energy warframe uses is void energy. Our operators channel their void energy to the warframes through transference. The Prime lore and how they interact in void tileset that give a burst of energy also backs this up.

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

I disagree because its not directly the hardware of the warframe rather its the hardware of the grenade. Other wise you could call any weapon an ability

As for how he aquires his grenades, there arent any lore to support it which is partially why im complaining. If in the lore they stated he uses the void or something to constantly produce grenades i would call it an ability.


but this was a waaay better response

But the lore does say all energy warframe uses is void energy. Our operators channel their void energy to the warframes through transference. The Prime lore and how they interact in void tileset that give a burst of energy also backs this up.

It may say they use the void in some way(i would need to read the quote) but they dont say how this interacts with his ability which i will reiterate they never go into to detail. If they simply link the void directly to his use of grenades im happy i guess.

[MasterManiac]

The grenades are generated by the frame, draining core power in the process, and the composition of the reactant is engineered by the same. Hence: innate ability. End of. Finit. Not even that hard to understand. Only thing about it is muscular propulsion being the method of delivery.

You don't think that's impressive, I challenge you to conjure up purpose built explosives just by thinking about them.

[hrooza]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Edit:

Premise 1. All warframes abilities depend on important hardware in the warframe to work
Premise 2. Vauban's "abilities" are not dependant on his warframe (they come from his grenades)
Premise 3. If an ability does not depend on the hardware of the warframe it is not an ability

Conclusion: Vauban has no abilities as his abilities do not depend on his warframe

his ability is to generat the grenades :P

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh hrooza07:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Edit:

Premise 1. All warframes abilities depend on important hardware in the warframe to work
Premise 2. Vauban's "abilities" are not dependant on his warframe (they come from his grenades)
Premise 3. If an ability does not depend on the hardware of the warframe it is not an ability

Conclusion: Vauban has no abilities as his abilities do not depend on his warframe

his ability is to generat the grenades :P

But it doesnt say he generates grenades. It just says he uses grenades.

[hrooza]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Diposting pertama kali oleh hrooza07:

his ability is to generat the grenades :P

But it doesnt say he generates grenades. It just says he uses grenades.

but how those things are only on vauban?? most likely he is the one who generate them

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh hrooza07:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

But it doesnt say he generates grenades. It just says he uses grenades.

but how those things are only on vauban?? most likely he is the one who generate them

Maybe since every other warframe has abilities they have no need to use grenades

but more importantly this is a question that arises because they dont bother to even attempt to answer it. In a sense it is a very small plot hole.

[Criticalfire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

But the lore does say all energy warframe uses is void energy. Our operators channel their void energy to the warframes through transference. The Prime lore and how they interact in void tileset that give a burst of energy also backs this up.

It may say they use the void in some way(i would need to read the quote) but they dont say how this interacts with his ability which i will reiterate they never go into to detail. If they simply link the void directly to his use of grenades im happy i guess.

Ok then may i ask this: Do you consider ember's world on fire an ability? if so what hardware of ember is being dependant on. What about in my previous argument about frost and atlas abilities?

Are excalibur's javelin blind and sword abilities or weapons since excalibur manifests this and his energy slash comes from the sword and not him?

Same question goes for ash's throwing star, atlas punch and golems or saryn's molt. (Btw im done trolling these are legitamite questions i am asking so hopefully you will consider these thoughts in relation to premises you have listed to what is considered an ability.)

They do not appear to be directly linked to void energy in their lore but they are still considered abilities even though they are seperated from the frame hardware upon casting.

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

It may say they use the void in some way(i would need to read the quote) but they dont say how this interacts with his ability which i will reiterate they never go into to detail. If they simply link the void directly to his use of grenades im happy i guess.

Ok then may i ask this: Do you consider ember's world on fire an ability? if so what hardware of ember is being dependant on. What about in my previous argument about frost and atlas abilities?

Are excalibur's javelin blind and sword abilities or weapons since excalibur manifests this and his energy slash comes from the sword and not him?

Same question goes for ash's throwing star, atlas punch and golems or saryn's molt. (Btw im done trolling these are legitamite questions i am asking so hopefully you will consider these thoughts in relation to premises you have listed to what is considered an ability.)

They do not appear to be directly linked to void energy in their lore but they are still considered abilities even though they are seperated from the frame hardware upon casting.

Ive answered something similiar to this already, But i will answer each one here just for the sake of it.

"Ok then may i ask this: Do you consider ember's world on fire an ability? if so what hardware of ember is being dependant on. What about in my previous argument about frost and atlas abilities? "


You can directly link embers fire abilities to ember because it does not show ember relying on external equipment to generate the fire.


"Are excalibur's javelin blind and sword abilities or weapons since excalibur manifests this and his energy slash comes from the sword and not him? '

I would say his javelin blind is not an ability as he relies on an external tool to generate it (unless the warframe is needed for that tool to work which we cant know)

If the slashs from his sword are generated by his warframe (idk say it focuses energy on a single point then releases it) then i would call it an ability

"Same question goes for ash's throwing star,"

I wouldnt call it an ability. although you could claim that the tracking maybe caused by the warframe in that case it would be an ability but again the lore is vague so ill just assume its not an ability

" atlas punch and golems"

Atlas' punch could be considered super strength so its fine as an ability
i dont understand what you mean by golems, because it seems that he generates and controls them

[Criticalfire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

Ok then may i ask this: Do you consider ember's world on fire an ability? if so what hardware of ember is being dependant on. What about in my previous argument about frost and atlas abilities?

Are excalibur's javelin blind and sword abilities or weapons since excalibur manifests this and his energy slash comes from the sword and not him?

Same question goes for ash's throwing star, atlas punch and golems or saryn's molt. (Btw im done trolling these are legitamite questions i am asking so hopefully you will consider these thoughts in relation to premises you have listed to what is considered an ability.)

They do not appear to be directly linked to void energy in their lore but they are still considered abilities even though they are seperated from the frame hardware upon casting.

Ive answered something similiar to this already, But i will answer each one here just for the sake of it.

"Ok then may i ask this: Do you consider ember's world on fire an ability? if so what hardware of ember is being dependant on. What about in my previous argument about frost and atlas abilities? "


You can directly link embers fire abilities to ember because it does not show ember relying on external equipment to generate the fire.


"Are excalibur's javelin blind and sword abilities or weapons since excalibur manifests this and his energy slash comes from the sword and not him? '

I would say his javelin blind is not an ability as he relies on an external tool to generate it (unless the warframe is needed for that tool to work which we cant know)

If the slashs from his sword are generated by his warframe (idk say it focuses energy on a single point then releases it) then i would call it an ability

"Same question goes for ash's throwing star,"

I wouldnt call it an ability. although you could claim that the tracking maybe caused by the warframe in that case it would be an ability but again the lore is vague so ill just assume its not an ability

" atlas punch and golems"

Atlas' punch could be considered super strength so its fine as an ability
i dont understand what you mean by golems, because it seems that he generates and controls them

Atlas punch is actually him gathering rocks on his fists and using them as boxing gloves. And he doesnt control the golems they have a mind of thier own and follow their own pathing and targeting.

As for javelin and stars both require line of sight to take effect which is the neuroptic hardware of the respective frames.

And exalted blade waves come from the sword not excalibur himself otherwise he would just use the equipped melee you have and channel energy through it which would mean that he generates waves regardless of the weapon but since exalted blade is his specific weapon i would consider it a weapon (by your standards of course)

As for your ember argument if you look closely ember does generate 2 obrs of fire that orbit her during world on fire.

But lets bring this train back on the rails. Reason why most of us consider vauban grenades abilities (even by your premises) is because they are unique to him, consume void energy, require the frame to aim calculate and transform the balls into his respective traps thus depending on the frame neuroptic and system hardware. Lore or not vauban does require user input to change the grenade effect and requires line of site to throw and activate them. Vauban also seems to generate his own grenades via his palm since we do not physically see him pluck grenades from his body. (I think those are decorations).

Speaking of which where are you reading these vague lores from?

[THER]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Totally Innocent Chatbot:

Come back when you have any argument.

I did but because you lack reading comprehensionskills you may have missed it

Talks about not being able to read properly. But can’t even use basic punctuations.

Feel free to reply to this, I had my laugh from this, not worth subscribing.

[[Giver Of The Beans]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Criticalfire:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ╬ Mr.bobsack438:

Ive answered something similiar to this already, But i will answer each one here just for the sake of it.

"Ok then may i ask this: Do you consider ember's world on fire an ability? if so what hardware of ember is being dependant on. What about in my previous argument about frost and atlas abilities? "


You can directly link embers fire abilities to ember because it does not show ember relying on external equipment to generate the fire.


"Are excalibur's javelin blind and sword abilities or weapons since excalibur manifests this and his energy slash comes from the sword and not him? '

I would say his javelin blind is not an ability as he relies on an external tool to generate it (unless the warframe is needed for that tool to work which we cant know)

If the slashs from his sword are generated by his warframe (idk say it focuses energy on a single point then releases it) then i would call it an ability

"Same question goes for ash's throwing star,"

I wouldnt call it an ability. although you could claim that the tracking maybe caused by the warframe in that case it would be an ability but again the lore is vague so ill just assume its not an ability

" atlas punch and golems"

Atlas' punch could be considered super strength so its fine as an ability
i dont understand what you mean by golems, because it seems that he generates and controls them

Atlas punch is actually him gathering rocks on his fists and using them as boxing gloves. And he doesnt control the golems they have a mind of thier own and follow their own pathing and targeting.

As for javelin and stars both require line of sight to take effect which is the neuroptic hardware of the respective frames.

And exalted blade waves come from the sword not excalibur himself otherwise he would just use the equipped melee you have and channel energy through it which would mean that he generates waves regardless of the weapon but since exalted blade is his specific weapon i would consider it a weapon (by your standards of course)

As for your ember argument if you look closely ember does generate 2 obrs of fire that orbit her during world on fire.

But lets bring this train back on the rails. Reason why most of us consider vauban grenades abilities (even by your premises) is because they are unique to him, consume void energy, require the frame to aim calculate and transform the balls into his respective traps thus depending on the frame neuroptic and system hardware. Lore or not vauban does require user input to change the grenade effect and requires line of site to throw and activate them. Vauban also seems to generate his own grenades via his palm since we do not physically see him pluck grenades from his body. (I think those are decorations).

Speaking of which where are you reading these vague lores from?

"Atlas punch is actually him gathering rocks on his fists and using them as boxing gloves."
So he is using is warframes abilities to make rocks gather around his fist how is that not an ability? the rocks cant stay there with out the power of the warframe

"And he doesnt control the golems they have a mind of thier own and follow their own pathing and targeting."

I know he doesnt control the golems, maybe i was unclear.

He generates and they are under his control as in they are on his side


"And exalted blade waves come from the sword not excalibur himself otherwise he would just use the equipped melee you have and channel energy through it which would mean that he generates waves regardless of the weapon but since exalted blade is his specific weapon i would consider it a weapon (by your standards of course) then i would say"

Then i would say its not an ability

"As for your ember argument if you look closely ember does generate 2 obrs of fire that orbit her during world on fire."

You make my case for me, You even say "she generates 2 orbs" If it is generated by her then its an ability I dont see the problem

"But lets bring this train back on the rails. Reason why most of us consider vauban grenades abilities (even by your premises) is because they are unique to him"

That isnt my premise really,

My point is that calling his grenades an ability when they arent dependant on a warframes power means that you can call anything an ability like guns or swords. Which makes the definition useless. Its not about the unqiueness it about the warframes ability to independantly do something without the aid of some kind of external device.



"consume void energy, require the frame to aim calculate and transform the balls into his respective traps thus depending on the frame neuroptic and system hardware."

Under this defition you could literally call walking and seeing an ability because it uses neuroptic. My definition of ability does need refining but when i mention hardware i mean a specific device in the warframe made for generating the ability)


"Lore or not vauban does require user input to change the grenade effect and requires line of site to throw and activate them."

I dont really see this as a point

"Vauban also seems to generate his own grenades via his palm since we do not physically see him pluck grenades from his body. (I think those are decorations)."

This could just be boiled down to gameplay reasons, as it might be easier to animate, but ive already admitted that if he does generate the grenades then i would call it an ablility