Durability loss after repair why?

[Scuba]

I dont understand why this mechanic is in this game and I would like to express my dislike of this concept.

Normal durability loss due to use justifies the skills/cost around durability etc and i have no issue, i actually like the mechanic... but reducing a weapons maximum durability after each repair just seems harsh.

So far my experience is that resources are limited and dont replenish I understand its still beta and i dont know how this will affect the game but i still dont like it.

[Neowulff]

I imagine they will have items that this will not effect. They should really have things that can be replaced when repairing, ie, an axe haft that you replace through the repair process, rather than simply fixing the old axe haft.

Repairing knicks out of blades, I could see that lowering the overall durability of the item. But the durability of the blade and the durability of the haft/hilt/etc likely add up to be the overall durability of an item.

I'm not sure this is how it is figured, and likely if added at this stage would require a lot of added coding, but that is how I imagine the overall durability decreasing with repairs.

I would also imagine that overall durability has a base minimum for an item that isn't "permanently broken". Likely an item will have 20/20 durability after numerous repairs not 5/5 or 1/1...

Hopefully someone can clarify, but this is the logical reasoning for putting it into a game with limited resources. It is also probably there so you are basically forced to switch your weapon out and look at every stat available before you throw out or sell something.

[Gyson]

When playing games, I really dislike being in a situation where I'm afraid to use my favorite pieces of equipment because I know that repeated use will eventually make the item unusable. That, to me, is the opposite of fun as it makes me feel like I have to hide my best gear away until it's really needed. I don't want to lock my best equipment in a vault.. I want to wear it.

Durability damage that can be completely repaired is fine, but permanent damage.. not so much.The characters themselves, after all, can suffer an endless amount of near-death beatings without suffering any permanent effects. They can always be restored to "good as new" status. As such, I prefer it when the equipment works the same way.

If permanent durability damage has to be in, then consider perhaps only applying it when the equipment reaches a durability of 0/# (i.e. hasn't been repaired in a long while). Then it's a penalty for neglecting your tools and not keeping your equipment properly maintained, allowing it to fall into a state of disrepair. But don't do it every time someone repairs their equipment. You seem to be punishing players for repairing their gear, rather than making Repair a desirable skill and rewarding them for repairing often.

[Neowulff]

See, that is what i thought about after i responded above. If it is completely broken, knock a tick off of the max durability. It would also be useful if a master at repair (or above the required minimum to repair the item) does not lose durability points. And if you have mastered repair, a passive to repair items after battle would be useful.

I havent gotten to mess around with repair after the beta hit. First play I didnt bother saving when I first loaded into the beta as I wanted to try out the character generator a few times. Hopefully i can mess around with it this weekend.

[Gyson]

Originally posted by Neowulff:

I havent gotten to mess around with repair after the beta hit. First play I didnt bother saving when I first loaded into the beta as I wanted to try out the character generator a few times. Hopefully i can mess around with it this weekend.

Currently (as an example), a Repair skill of 1 used on an item that requires a Repair skill of 1 to repair a piece of equipment with 69/70 durablity (barely damaged) will lower the maximum durability to 42.

That's extremely severe.

[studmuffin]

last time i played divine divinity the repair skill would not give full repair until you maxed skill out..i,e rank 1 gives you back maybe 60% durability,next rank 70% etc,etc.the system works well if thats the way they are doing it.which i think they are.for each point you put in repair your durability will increase.

[Syvion]

when you have repair 5, or a merchant has repair 5, the max durability does not lower.
The reason behind lowering durability for any other level is that your character 'can't repair it as good as it was when it was made until you are a master repairsmen'. Imperfections caused due to being unskilled lowers max durability, the more unskilled your are, the graver mistakes you make upon repairing.

[Scuba]

Originally posted by Syvion:

when you have repair 5, or a merchant has repair 5, the max durability does not lower.
The reason behind lowering durability for any other level is that your character 'can't repair it as good as it was when it was made until you are a master repairsmen'. Imperfections caused due to being unskilled lowers max durability, the more unskilled your are, the graver mistakes you make upon repairing.

I can follow the reasoning here, if this is the final design i can live with that. Thanks for the explanation.

[Gyson]

Originally posted by Syvion:

when you have repair 5, or a merchant has repair 5, the max durability does not lower.
The reason behind lowering durability for any other level is that your character 'can't repair it as good as it was when it was made until you are a master repairsmen'. Imperfections caused due to being unskilled lowers max durability, the more unskilled your are, the graver mistakes you make upon repairing.

The problem with this approach is that it really can make the player feel like they should either invest 15 precious skill points into the Repair skill (to achieve rank 5) or not even bother with it. Why only bother with the lower ranks if your intention is not to go the entire way, after all, as you will be stuck with a harmful skill that can eventually destroy your most beloved possessions?

Perhaps a solution to this entire problem rests with the repair (hammer) tool itself. The trick with durability is that there has to be a consequence preventing you from repairing your gear whenever you want. Otherwise, skills like Lockpicking lose their usefulness as getting through locked doors and containers only requires patience and multiple clicks of the Repair function on the weapon you use to bash these obstacles with.

The current deterrent for that behavior is the permanent reduction of max-durability every time you repair it (it makes you not want to use your weapon unless you really have to). If that is removed (and that's what we all seem to be looking for) the deterrent is gone - and that's bad for the Lockpicking skill.

What if, instead, we address that flaw by making the repair tool itself an item with durability that can not be repaired? It would lose durability every time it's used to repair an item, and the repair tool itself would eventually break, requiring the purchase of a new repair tool (which needs to be frequently stocked on vendors). In that way, the price of replacing the repair tool would deter players from damaging their weapons via breaking down locked doors and containers too often.

On top of this, you can still have the current mechanic where higher levels of durability loss on an item require higher ranks of the Repair skill. And perhaps we apply the idea that higher levels of Repair skill equates to a reduction of durability lost on the repair tool itself (meaning your repair tool lasts longer as you become more skilled at repairing items).

In short, we would end up with this:

• Items suffer temporary durability damage as used, excluding the player-purchased repair tool. There is no limit to how often these items can be repaired.
  
  
• The repair tool suffers permanent durability damage when used, and can not be repaired. Eventually, new repair tools have to be purchased. They should be frequently stocked on vendors.
  
  
• The cost of a repair tool should be substantially lower than the cost of repairing items through the vendor's repair function, encouraging players to invest in the Repair skill.
  
  
• Increased levels of temporary durability loss require higher levels of the Repair skill, encouraging players to either keep their equipment in good shape by repairing often, or investing even more points into the Repair skill instead.
  
  
• Permanent durability loss on the repair tool is either based on the amount of durability points restored on an object, or based on frequency of use. I prefer the latter approach because it greatly improves the usefulness of the Repair skill as it allows players to use the repair tool less often, while being able to repair greater amounts of temporary durability loss.

Going that route, we 1) make the Repair skill attractive, and 2) preserve the attractiveness of the Lockpicking skill, while 3) removing permanent durability loss on all equipment (save for the repair tool itself). Thoughts?

[jodi-]

personally, I have not bought the game yet, I have enjoyed their previous games but i am not a fan of eatly access, been dissapointed with them all (I have bought rust, starbound, uncharted planet, planet explorers, running with rifles, age of decandence and void destroyers)
So I guess I'm just the type of person who prefers to buy game when they are ready and not when they are buggy.

But anyway, from a standard RPG and logical standpoint this is in my opinion a pretty good idea, didn't the first Diablo or some other popular game had a similar system.
Gameplay wise it force you out of your comfort zone, you can't use the same items forever (thought, I don't know about this one, but it is rarely a problem in RPG as you get better stuff as your lvl increase)
and as logically, i remember a quote from system shock 2 (I think it had a similar system) "weapons are not fine wines, they don't get better with age" :)

[johnny_m_j]

Originally posted by Gyson:

Originally posted by Neowulff:

I havent gotten to mess around with repair after the beta hit. First play I didnt bother saving when I first loaded into the beta as I wanted to try out the character generator a few times. Hopefully i can mess around with it this weekend.

Currently (as an example), a Repair skill of 1 used on an item that requires a Repair skill of 1 to repair a piece of equipment with 69/70 durablity (barely damaged) will lower the maximum durability to 42.

That's extremely severe.

So, unless your skill is maxed out, repairing will severely reduce the quality (at least durability) of an item...

Wasn't going to preorder anyway (almost never do), but I will continue to follow this game till it's released. Not sure how much impact this issue will have, but if it's a big one, it will probably be a breaker for me.

[Syvion]

Originally posted by jodi-:

But anyway, from a standard RPG and logical standpoint this is in my opinion a pretty good idea, didn't the first Diablo or some other popular game had a similar system.
Gameplay wise it force you out of your comfort zone, you can't use the same items forever (thought, I don't know about this one, but it is rarely a problem in RPG as you get better stuff as your lvl increase)
and as logically, i remember a quote from system shock 2 (I think it had a similar system) "weapons are not fine wines, they don't get better with age" :)

I know for a fact that this is how our design team is thinking, they want you to force to use some different weapons during the game.