Females wearing heels...?

[Drumheller]

Hey guys! I've been playing the game for less than 10 minutes, but the first thing I noticed is that all of the female's footwear is heels. Even when stripped of all gear, the default footgear is high heels. Is that going to stay in for the end-game? It's a bit... silly.

[Egro]

Originally posted by Maarken:

Originally posted by Rainy nights:

Ok, scarlett's boots are about 6-7 cm. They're not "high heels stiletto"; but average ones with large base. They're supercomfort to wear, even for 8 hours, my job is all standing and walking and I have no problem. To me, as woman, they're not scary at all.

I find it funny that this thread is going on with mostly men complaining about shoes in the game, but when a female mentions their stance on it and points out something interesting it gets completly ignored. I figured if anyone would be the one arguing against the heels in a game it would be them.

of course, they ignored it. Otherwise they will need to come up with something better or take back what they said. Too much brain power and they don't want to look like a fool.

[MTaur]

Originally posted by Temerity:

Just to be clear; if we're going to complain about women's sex appeal, then we should have the option to shrink the guy's muscles down to the size of a starving old man's. Yet most of the attention, focused on video games, appears to be focused on the women that are depicted in them... For reasons. It tends to go both ways though, in spite of public opinion. Now don't get me wrong; I'm all for women's rights, just not for hypocrisy. If you want to complain about the female models beng overly 'idealized' or whatever, then you should be complaining about the male ones too. It's only fair. But if the one doesn't bother you, then the other shouldn't.

You're assuming that all other things are equal when they're not. Men routinely make more money than women for doing the same jobs. Most strip clubs cater especially to men wanting to look at women. Every US president ever has been a man. Women get catcalled or worse a LOT more than men do, basically in just about any relatively large city. I've very rarely felt at all objectified as a man, but women I know are objectified, dismissed, underestimated, underpaid, and underpromoted all the time. The reason people complain more about over-sexualized women in the media is that it happens more and it does more harm.

The difference between how you might sexualize males and how you sexualize females is night-and-day: men are subjects, and woman are objects. Men do things, and then they get women, and whatever women do is about men - Google the Bechdel Test.

Usually men in fantasy are portrayed as strong and powerful. Sometimes this means lots of armor, but occasionally you get a barbarian archtype in a loincloth. Either way, manly is strong, and the more manly you are, the more you get to be in control of your own destiny. It just happens that this goes along with what it typically means for men to be "sexy". The wish fulfilment here is for the man. The man playing the game wishes he were strong, and the man wishes he could score with the chick wearing 6 square inches of cloth and 8 inch high heels. The straight man consuming the fantasy is having his fantasy fulfilled.

It's really rare for men to actually be reduced to sex objects. Exaggerated phyiscal power is automatically sexy, but only if you're a man. Women get exaggerated in ways that mostly aren't about their power.

You often *do* see variation in body types for male characters more than you do for female characters, as well. All the women would weigh 130 pounds in real life, while big men are fighters, slender men are rogues, and old men are wizards. Big chicks and fat chicks... usually don't exist in Fantasy World. The current D:OS only has one non-alterable body of each at the moment, but men really do get more to choose from when it comes to bodies. If you've read a blog post by a fat girl who wanted to cosplay as someone, it usually ends with you can't win because you can't exist, fatty, DO NOT WANT.

So I really believe that it's a much bigger problem. No one does a perfect job of representing any class of people, and there's always room to improve or whatever, but as long as women are getting catcalled on the way to work at their job where they make 20% less money than they should, saving the poor menfolk from objectification won't be a goal of mine. I don't feel objectified as a man on a regular basis, and I don't know any men who do.

[Face]

No, the problem is you and many femminists have a victim complex, you see sexisim where there is none, and create problems that don't really exist.

I can do the same thing, watch.

It offends me that in 90% of video games, the main bad guy is often a white male. this is unfair for white males and offends me. You are objectifiyng white men as evil.

Or how about:
In many cases it is a male who does the bidding of his queen or princess. She is constantly expecting him to come to her rescue or defense whenever she so much as waves a hand, this makes men in games little more than tools to be used.



See? I just did the exact same thing, the point can literally be made about anything, the entire "debate" is just foolish.


And you make the point about body types for men. Tell me, when was the last time a fat, overweight male was the hero of a video game? never. they are often the object of jokes or the craven character. The only reason you think there is a problem, is because YOU are the one who creates women into roles. YOU are the one turning them into "objects"

As for your point about the "DO NOT WANT" body type, again you are making it a gender role when it's not, it's a body type role. The exact same thing would be said about a fat guy trying to cosplay as a character. Yet you don't even notice that, which again, fits in to the victim complex you've been brainwashed with. You see a problem where there really isn't one.



*Also men earn more money on the national average because men are much more likely to take on more dangerous jobs or manual labor with hazard pay. (Fishermen, Infantry, Police, Fire Fighters, PMC, Security, etc)

[Dexter]

Every time I visit these forums to see if anything has changed about the game possibly being out of Alpha I see these kind of threads trending somewhere at the top. I thought about backing back when the KickStarter ran but had already backed a bunch of projects and there were already all these weird requests and the first changes to appeal to an extremely demanding vocal minority. Then they changed the cover and apparently large parts of the armor and now it’s the “high heels”.

And if they give in to that they will find something else to ♥♥♥♥♥ about since the basic concept is that of “giving them a finger and they’ll demand the whole hand” and it will never end. The more developers concede to them, the more they will be asking for change and feel validated, be it “too much makeup” or the body proportions or how the character talks or whatever and that’s just not the kind of game I want to play.

I liked Dragon Commander because of the outstanding character art for the advisors and because of some damn cool concepts like dragons with jetpacks and that’s what I want to play, not “politically correct – the game”. There’s only so much pandering to a vocal audience and constantly changing the game I am willing to take till it becomes silly and I just get something else. It’s a shame also because good CoOp games to play with friends aren’t a dime a dozen, but I want to play the game that Larian Studios wanted to make and not the one that Tumblr managed to co-design from head to bottom. ♥♥♥♥ that noise.

[MTaur]

About pay - it's not just on the average. If you control for just about any variable you can think of, it's still unequal.

Body types - fat guys get sitcoms, in which they get attractive wives. Sure, they're loveable dopes, but they're allowed to exist. Dwarves are usually pretty stocky, and there's usually a dwarf, and I don't think I've ever seen the lone dwarf of the party be female in any fantasy setting. Why? Because fat isn't as good as skinny, but fat and female defeats the whole purpose of being female. Fat guys are comic relief, but fat chicks aren't supposed to exist. It's lose-lose, but women lose harder. Sure there are 1000 ways that it cuts both ways, but it usually cuts harder the other way.

[Egro]

Originally posted by Mcface:

No, the problem is you and many femminists have a victim complex, you see sexisim where there is none, and create problems that don't really exist.

I can do the same thing, watch.

It offends me that in 90% of video games, the main bad guy is often a white male. this is unfair for white males and offends me. You are objectifiyng white men as evil.

Or how about:
In many cases it is a male who does the bidding of his queen or princess. She is constantly expecting him to come to her rescue or defense whenever she so much as waves a hand, this makes men in games little more than tools to be used.



See? I just did the exact same thing, the point can literally be made about anything, the entire "debate" is just foolish.


And you make the point about body types for men. Tell me, when was the last time a fat, overweight male was the hero of a video game? never. they are often the object of jokes or the craven character. The only reason you think there is a problem, is because YOU are the one who creates women into roles. YOU are the one turning them into "objects"

As for your point about the "DO NOT WANT" body type, again you are making it a gender role when it's not, it's a body type role. The exact same thing would be said about a fat guy trying to cosplay as a character. Yet you don't even notice that, which again, fits in to the victim complex you've been brainwashed with. You see a problem where there really isn't one.



*Also men earn more money on the national average because men are much more likely to take on more dangerous jobs or manual labor with hazard pay. (Fishermen, Infantry, Police, Fire Fighters, PMC, Security, etc)

wow ,someone who can think rationally with least bias actually exist... O.o

Us scholar don't call it victim complex, we call it Confirmation bias. Victim complex, martyr complex, persecutory delusion is something very different than what you was trying to say in your post. That guy/gal is clearly not a victim, he or her (probably a he) just want to look good as a justice fighter with a grand plan about "equality". A trouble individual, pity... :(

[Keks]

Originally posted by MTaur:

"Artistic vision" is pretty lofty talking for a stance that boils down to "sexy calves or GTFO". For the most part, the anti-heels people are fine with having the option stay on at character creation, but the sexy-calves-or-GTFO party thinks that the game is actually being ruined if players are allowed to toggle off the "women=wank_fodder" option.

You're one of the few intelligent beings on this thread. A lot of whining just because we want another pair of shoes, right? :D

[flagyl2]

Originally posted by MTaur:

objects.

Everyone, outside of a select few in certain interpersonal relationships, is objectified.

Women can be treated as sexial objects, but how is that type of objectification any worse than any other type? Either ALL objectification is wrong and we fight to have people no longer objectify others on any level or we accept that it is a part of life.


In edit-

Originally posted by MTaur:

but as long as women are getting catcalled on the way to work at their job where they make 20% less money than they should, saving the poor menfolk from objectification won't be a goal of mine. I don't feel objectified as a man on a regular basis, and I don't know any men who do.

But you ARE objectified, whether you choose to be aware of it or not.

In addition, this is particular discussion is not about objectification of women, at least not as I see it, but about minutiae-high heels in a game. SHOES. We are arguing about SHOES. Think about that for a moment.

We are all subjected to boorish behavior. I went to the Microsoft store last week to look at a Surface Pro 2 and one of the staff there studiously ignored me as she was helping another salesperson help me. I was standing less than six inches from her and she never once spoke to me or looked at me. I definitely felt like an object in that moment, due to her rude behavior. Catcalls can be upsetting, I am sure and it may be prevalent; I do not know. This may be something women go through constantly, and I can empathize, but unless you are going to show me a direct link between SHOES and societal disrespect, I have to imagine that you are throwing all the arguments used to rail against women being treated as secondary members of society into this mix, which seems to me as I stated before, to be off topic.

Regarding the disparity in earning income; well, isn't it better to be working than not at all? This is part of an analysis of the August unemployment numbers-"Adult women’s overall unemployment rate decreased from 7.6 percent at the start of the recovery to 6.5 percent in July 2013 and adult men’s dropped from 9.9 percent to 7.0 percent." Now, please let it be known that I CHERRY-PICKED that point. I quoted it NOT to one-up your point about income inequality or the glass ceiling (both of which are quite true and DO ned to be remedied), but to show that BOTH genders have issues to deal with.

I kinda hate to start picking on you...I REALLY do. I think that one of the requisites to having a rational, meaningful discussion derives from having a basic amount of respect for the person that you are engaging. While I do not agree with your thesis, I respect your zeal for fighting for gender equality. I truthfully do...

BUT-look at your screen name and avatar. It is a minotaur, correct? A man (maybe or maybe not sexist imagery) and a bull (definitely sexist imagery. Cows are domesticated to produce milk and to have calves. Bulls are just there to procreate). In addition, did you know that the minotaur came about via bestiality and infidelity by a woman? A woman who could not contain her libido, so she had sexual relations with a bull, resulting in a half man, half bull. So she cheated on her husband with an animal and then cuckolded him (he must have been blind) to raise this child. You obviously resonate with this mythical character, so YOU must be sexist (half "bull") and you support the idea that women cannot control their libidos to the extent that they must copulate with an animal. By choosung that screen name and avator, you are part of the problem of a patriarchal society that systemically strives to oppress women in all areas at every turn.

Does any of the above make any sense? No? Then let's worry about the game and hope that the devs use their time making a great GAME and not about SHOES.

PS-Like I said above, all of what I said about your screen name and avatar was said in jest. I do not believe you had any ill intent when you chose either. It was just a way to illustrate how far anyone can take an argument if they want to see everything as a slight. And I say this as a moderate-progressive man of color.

[Cat]

This topic sure went places..

I would like to remind people that we're not arguing gender roles and objectification, but just that some of us wants different SHOES in this game, not removing the high heels, just have different kinds of shoes so it's not all high heels.. How that, to some of you, equals changing the grand design of the whole game, I don't understand.

But I'm not gonna hold out for this topic to get back onto that, so have fun discussing.

[flagyl2]

Originally posted by Sunricer:

This topic sure went places..

I would like to remind people that we're not arguing gender roles and objectification, but just that some of us wants different SHOES in this game, not removing the high heels, just have different kinds of shoes so it's not all high heels.. How that, to some of you, equals changing the grand design of the whole game, I don't understand.

But I'm not gonna hold out for this topic to get back onto that, so have fun discussing.

Minutiae.

[Cat]

Well, let me correct myself and say that originally, this thread was supposed to be about shoes, but it's not anymore.

[Blink]

Minotaur myth pwnage. My life is complete.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Rainy nights:

I'm a woman and I love heels. The ones scarlett wears are average. Non high at all. Then start asking yourself how could madora use a two-hands weapon longer than herself: any balance issue??? It's is design, i love it.

This is not reality, you don't need logic o rationality in outfits and weapon. It's Fantasy.

As I have used 'two-hands weapons longer than myself' I can assure you that this is not a problem at all.

Originally posted by Rainy nights:

Originally posted by Apocalypse:

High-heels are not only not practical, they destroy your muscles and make you a significant slower runner and worse fighter. They simply are super stupid to wear constantly and this applies to the real world as well. ;-)

Ok, scarlett's boots are about 6-7 cm. They're not "high heels stiletto"; but average ones with large base. They're supercomfort to wear, even for 8 hours, my job is all standing and walking and I have no problem. To me, as woman, they're not scary at all.

I hope your job is not runner or fighter ;-)
I am absolute sure that you can walk, even run with high-heels once your muscular structure adapt to them. The problem is not that they are uncomfortable or prevent you from moving, the problem is that they change your body into a configuration which is less optimal from a biomechanical standpoint. Even constant wearing of just 1cm heels will have a negative effect on your running and swordfighting performance. This does not mean that you can not still have above average performance still, but it is a handicap for you. In other words: If you can wear 7 cm high-heels comfortable for 8 hours straight than your legs have adapted to this position enough to have lessen your abilities to run and fight. French rapier would be one of the few styles that are not affected of this much, because the fencing style developed in a period with heels common for men and women. Those heels were wider and they needed to support your full weight in this fencing style as you moved mostly on your heels instead of the balls of your feet like in older styles for swords, sideswords and two-handed weapons.

edit: typo

[MTaur]

Um. Minotaur is minotaur. Half man, half bull. All awesome. Poseidon do weird things, stuff happen. MAKE MINOTAUR.

Some things that happen in old stories not very nice for emulating. But minotaur is awesome and has axe.

[.//slayer]

But minotaur is awesome and has axe.

I felt an irresistible urge to say that I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.