An honest review from a non fanboy

[Lock]

My favorite game, or RPG, of all time is Baldur's Gate 2. Nothing has ever come close to surpassing its excellence in storytelling, immersion, sound and overall design. I've played every CRPG that came out since, and although many people might disagree with this, the only games that ever came close for me were The Witcher 2 and (yes) Skyrim. I kind of liked Dragon Age: Origins, but it just didn't grip me. I even liked Dragon Age 2, but again, it didn't grip me enough. I liked Fallout 3, and Fallout: New Vegas, but after playing Oblivion, they just felt like more of the same. Mass Effect 1,2 and even 3 were great, but they were not RPG's in the same way The Walking Dead is not an RPG. I've played Diablo 2 & 3, and they were fun hack&slash games, but nothing more. I've played Avernum and Abadon, but even though they came out a decade later, they felt older than the Baldur's Gate series and so I couldn't enjoy them as much. I've played many more game, but nothing ever came close.

Now as a Belgian myself (sorry about last night US people), I remember being all hyped up when Larian released Divine Divinty more than a decade ago. I bought it, played it, and... I didn't like it. It lacked all the good qualities the Baldur's Gate series had. An epic story with personal stakes, excellent companions with their own personal stories, and quests which would take you all over the world and would take weeks to complete. Divine Divinty was "meh". It tried, it did it's best, but it never came close to the brilliance that Baldur's Gate (or even Fallout) was. I remember Larian promoting it as if they combined Diablo 2 with Infinity Engine games. This was simply not true. It wasn't a bad game, not at all, it just wasn't great. The misplaced "humor" and unepicness caused me to not finish the game and simply to forget about it after 20 hours or so.

Almost a decade later, Larian released Divinity 2. It had exactly the same problems as Divine Divinity, and this time I didn't like it at all. The story made no sense, there were literally no interesting characters and moving from a topdown RPG to a 3rd person action adventure was completely the wrong way to go. Next came Dragon Commander, not an RPG, but again, they promoted it as a hybrid between an RPG and an RTS. I didn't like it at all, it had the exact same problems.

I have no clue as to why, but when Larian announced Divinity: Original Sin, I got real excited. A promise to go back to the days of the old infinity games. An epic story! Memorable companions! Top down perspective! Turn based combat! New graphics! This was almost to good to be true. I'm not for the whole Kickstarter, Steam Early Access, idea. In my opinion it doesn't work and I still have to see the first game that gets released through these mediums which is actually good. Against my better knowledge I decided to buy it anyway. This couldn't go wrong right? They promised all the right things...

And here we are, and after 15 hours in, I can safely say that Larian did it again. Once again they made a mediocre RPG which promises to capture the same feeling the old infinity games did, but fails in the execution. It's quite easy to pinpoint where this went wrong: the writing. Again; a dull story which nobody will remember in a few weeks. Bland characters you don't really care about. And a journey that will take you through 4 kind of the same maps with not that much to do. Where is our epic villain? Who doesn't remember Jon Irenicus? What about Minsc and Boo? Did Cyseal have a serial killer who escapes you but turns up 30 hours later in a different city? Divinity Original Sin doesn't have any of that. It's a pretty nice dungeon crawler with a sort of decent combat system and filled with forgettable characters and quests. I'm 100% positive that if they hired the right writers, this could have been a game of epic proportions. But once again they failed to attract the right talent and what we are left with is a game filled with "funny" dialogue where your actions have no consequences and your companions are the stereotypical "imma gud fiter" or "Im a very intelligent wizard". After all this negativity it might sound like I hate Original Sin, I don't. It's a good RPG, and I will finish it in the following weeks, but it is by no means the revelation it was supposed, or could, have been.

If you want a true successor to the old CRPGS, I suggest you watch Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity, that looks like the game (I for one) have been waiting for all these years. But still, congrats on a nice game Larian, I hope it sells well and that it brings enough money to the table for you to hire a decent writing team for your next game.

7/10

[Lock]

Messaggio originale di Talby:

Agreed. D:OS is not a bad game, but it doesn't come close to being in the same league as Baldur's Gate 2. After the "OMG, an old-school Infinity Engine-style game!" hype dies down a few weeks from now, this game will be put on the shelf next to Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns and other "old school" CRPGs that promised to recapture the magic, but fell well short.

100% agree, although I hope Wasteland 2 will be better

[Pietoro]

Messaggio originale di Lockmort:

And here we are, and after 15 hours in, I can safely say that Larian did it again. Once again they made a mediocre RPG which promises to capture the same feeling the old infinity games did, but fails in the execution. It's quite easy to pinpoint where this went wrong: the writing. Again; a dull story which nobody will remember in a few weeks. Bland characters you don't really care about. And a journey that will take you through 4 kind of the same maps with not that much to do.

You've seen the entire world and story after only 15 hours in?

[Caelinus]

Messaggio originale di Pietoro:

Messaggio originale di Lockmort:

And here we are, and after 15 hours in, I can safely say that Larian did it again. Once again they made a mediocre RPG which promises to capture the same feeling the old infinity games did, but fails in the execution. It's quite easy to pinpoint where this went wrong: the writing. Again; a dull story which nobody will remember in a few weeks. Bland characters you don't really care about. And a journey that will take you through 4 kind of the same maps with not that much to do.

You've seen the entire world and story only after 15 hours in?

That is a good point, I am like 20 hours in and have only done like 50-60% of the first zone. I just keep finding puzzles and quests hidden everywhere.

Edit: And if the Homestead is any gauge, there are a crap ton of things for me to find still.

[Lock]

Messaggio originale di Pietoro:

Messaggio originale di Lockmort:

And here we are, and after 15 hours in, I can safely say that Larian did it again. Once again they made a mediocre RPG which promises to capture the same feeling the old infinity games did, but fails in the execution. It's quite easy to pinpoint where this went wrong: the writing. Again; a dull story which nobody will remember in a few weeks. Bland characters you don't really care about. And a journey that will take you through 4 kind of the same maps with not that much to do.

You've seen the entire world and story after only 15 hours in?

Ofcourse I haven't seen the entire game, but I've seen enough to know what is to come. It stopped surprising me after about 5 hours, which in my opinion is not a good thing. It's starting to remind me a lot of Sacred 2, which was a huge game but after a few hours it all looked the same and was a terrible grind to the end. Not saying this might evolve into greatness after all, but so far it's pretty bland compared to the greatness of the infinity games. I think Larian made a fine Larian game, but nothing more. People will forget about this in a few weeks, which is a shame because it had/or has a lot of potential. I just wish they crafted a better story, more interesting characters and more immersion.

[Morgoth]

People who like this game are a testament to how low our standards have fallen when proclaiming "good" RPGs. Thanks Bioware.

In short:

Larian your engine is kick ass, and your tactical combat is very good.

But you shouldn't have lied about open world or non-linearity.

[SeraphLance]

Messaggio originale di Can'tLoseWithTheCruise:

Baldur's Gate is the Citizen Kane of Non-Linear, Repercussion Driven, Adult Fantasy RPGs.

It's only rivals are Planescape: Torment (less expansive, more linear, grittier story), Fallout 2 (equally expansive, less linear), and Arcanum (less polish).

These are the Big Four.

Their depth and stories have not been matched yet.

Only modern age rivals are Age of Decadence, most likely Pillars of Eternity, hopefully Torment: Tides of Numenera and perhaps Wasteland 2.

I'm going to disagree. BG2 and Arcanum were solid, but otherwise unspectacular RPGs. Planescape was a game with a poor combat system that only gets praise for its pretentious story and the random fact (by definition a gimmick) that you can pretty much play through without technically fighting simply by picking the right choices / skills. Fallout is mostly praised for its setting, and is probably the most artificially padded "major" RPG in existence this side of TES. The sequel is a marked improvement, but does little to rectify that.

VtM: Bloodlines was better than Arcanum (mostly because the story was more memorable), for one. Many of the NWN mods (i.e. NOT the OC, start with anything by Adam Miller or Stefan Gagne) blow the pants off any BioWare game ever made, including both the BG titles. To round it off, try any of the Spiderweb Software titles, particularly Exile/Avernum if you have an old-school bent. Those are classic CRPGs done right.

Obsidian is a bit of a wildcard. I'll probably look at PoE at some point, but they've burned me a lot by not delivering on their promises, so I've got a healthy dose of skepticism.

Also, please don't use the word "repercussion" in a serious discussion of RPGs. RPG developers aren't in the business of providing choices, they're in the business of providing the *illusion* of choices, because ACTUAL choices are combinatorially expensive. Even The Witcher has like 4, and it throws a party post-chapter every time you make one because it's such a huge deal. If you wan't ACTUAL choices, you play fan mods, because they're not in business at all.

[Lock]

Messaggio originale di Caelinus:

I have not really read this whole thread, so this may have been mentioned before, but Skyrim has pretty awful writing. To put it on a pedastle with BG2 and The Witcher 2 is a little ridiculous.

Basically every quest in Skyrim is single resolution, and pretty much none of them change anything about your characters personality. Its strength is its open world, and I love it because of that. But the writing is awful. Dont complain about the writing without at least realizing that you like a game that has much much much worse.

Also, I am not entirely sure you have realized how dense the quests in this game are. There is a lot going on, and there are generally a lot of ways to complete the social ones.

I really don't think Skyrim was that bad in the writing department. You had the whole civil war quest, which was amazing and actually changed the world according to your actions. I agree that it didn't have the mind blowing changes it could have had, like in Baldur's Gate 2, but I still liked it very much. The only problem I had with it, was that it simply was to big and became a grind after 120 hours. When I play an RPG I want to come across stuff 30 hours in which I didn't know the game had. This could still be possible for Original Sin, but I highly doubt it at this point.

[Lock]

I agree with you on Avernum and Abadon, but they looked and played like 30 year old games. Some innovation would have been nice. Obsidian made a lot of errors in their previous games (especially Kotor2), but they redeemed themselves with Fallout: New Vegas. I also agree with you on VM: Bloodlines, that was an amazing game but totally unfinished on the day of release which held it back.

[Lock]

Messaggio originale di Can'tLoseWithTheCruise:

People who like this game are a testament to how low our standards have fallen when proclaiming "good" RPGs. Thanks Bioware.

In short:

Larian your engine is kick ass, and your tactical combat is very good.

But you shouldn't have lied about open world or non-linearity.

And there you have it. This is exactly what I think too.

[SeraphLance]

Messaggio originale di Lockmort:

I agree with you on Avernum and Abadon, but they looked and played like 30 year old games. Some innovation would have been nice. Obsidian made a lot of errors in their previous games (especially Kotor2), but they redeemed themselves with Fallout: New Vegas. I also agree with you on VM: Bloodlines, that was an amazing game but totally unfinished on the day of release which held it back.

Part of the problem with Avernum is that it's a remake of Exile, which came out somewhere in the early 90s IIRC. I originally had it on one of those old anthology-style CD-ROMs that companies used to make. I agree that it could use some more innovation, though the re-remake does have a significant (if still not enough) improvement in the usability department.

I actually never played NV, mostly because every other Fallout game I didn't terribly like.

Yeah, Obsidian has a bit of a problem with that. My favorite game from them was actually Alpha Protocol, as horribly unfinished as it was. Now there was a game with the potential for serious choice-consequence narrative, almost as much as something like Way of the Samurai.

[Lock]

Messaggio originale di SeraphLance:

Messaggio originale di Lockmort:

I agree with you on Avernum and Abadon, but they looked and played like 30 year old games. Some innovation would have been nice. Obsidian made a lot of errors in their previous games (especially Kotor2), but they redeemed themselves with Fallout: New Vegas. I also agree with you on VM: Bloodlines, that was an amazing game but totally unfinished on the day of release which held it back.

Part of the problem with Avernum is that it's a remake of Exile, which came out somewhere in the early 90s IIRC. I originally had it on one of those old anthology-style CD-ROMs that companies used to make. I agree that it could use some more innovation, though the re-remake does have a significant (if still not enough) improvement in the usability department.

I actually never played NV, mostly because every other Fallout game I didn't terribly like.

Yeah, Obsidian has a bit of a problem with that. My favorite game from them was actually Alpha Protocol, as horribly unfinished as it was. Now there was a game with the potential for serious choice-consequence narrative, almost as much as something like Way of the Samurai.

That's an interesting point you bring up there. Are "good" RPG's the ones where we actually have a lot of choices? A lot of games these days claim to have a lot of choices, but this generally means they have 3 or 4 seperate endings (Mass Effect). I think the game where your choices really mathered the most was The Witcher 2. The whole of act 3 would change depending on how you played the previous acts. But I don't think choices alone are what makes a good RPG. I'm looking for 4 key aspects in the perfect RPG: Overal Story - Villains and companions - combat mechanics - and choices. Those are the 4 pillars I judge an RPG on. Original Sin has nice combat mechanics but that's about it. Sure, there are a lot of ways to solve quests, but that won't reflect on the overal gameworld.

[Morgoth]

Messaggio originale di Lockmort:

Messaggio originale di SeraphLance:

Part of the problem with Avernum is that it's a remake of Exile, which came out somewhere in the early 90s IIRC. I originally had it on one of those old anthology-style CD-ROMs that companies used to make. I agree that it could use some more innovation, though the re-remake does have a significant (if still not enough) improvement in the usability department.

I actually never played NV, mostly because every other Fallout game I didn't terribly like.

Yeah, Obsidian has a bit of a problem with that. My favorite game from them was actually Alpha Protocol, as horribly unfinished as it was. Now there was a game with the potential for serious choice-consequence narrative, almost as much as something like Way of the Samurai.

That's an interesting point you bring up there. Are "good" RPG's the ones where we actually have a lot of choices? A lot of games these days claim to have a lot of choices, but this generally means they have 3 or 4 seperate endings (Mass Effect). I think the game where your choices really mathered the most was The Witcher 2. The whole of act 3 would change depending on how you played the previous acts. But I don't think choices alone are what makes a good RPG. I'm looking for 4 key aspects in the perfect RPG: Overal Story - Villains and companions - combat mechanics - and choices. Those are the 4 pillars I judge an RPG on. Original Sin has nice combat mechanics but that's about it. Sure, there are a lot of ways to solve quests, but that won't reflect on the overal gameworld.

Age of Decadence is currently without a rival to the "choice" throne.

It is brutal, and makes choice branching in Fallout look simple. Its on steam, play it you'll see.

[SeraphLance]

I think it's less that choices are the most important and more that they're -- necessarily, as they're the most expensive -- the most neglected. A fair amount of games have good stories, especially in modland. A surprising number of games, even major ones, have good characters. Pay close attention to the dialogue in Jade Empire the second time through (or play through it first if you haven't) to see one of the best-foreshadowed characters in history. Combat is a bit sketchy, but there's a fair number of those too with fun battle systems. Choices and general dynamism are things that are fairly lacking in general. I'm not strictly faulting developers for that, because actual branching has an exponentially increasing cost of development, but as such it's certainly the most underutilized of those core components (and I basically share the same list of values as you -- except with a priority of sorts, in that I consider combat slightly less important than the others).

EDIT: I should add that I don't really consider choices that are insulated and don't really do anything as "meaningful" choices. Skyrim for instance loves meaningless choices. You can be the leader of a dozen factions and influence world-changing (vagueness due to spoilers) events that... turn out not to really be all that world changing after all. Again, designed that way out of cost-cutting necessities. Or to reduce completionist frustrations, whatever.

[biggn82]

Steam level 0 with a locked profile and you played it for 15 hours and have come to a conclusion, give me a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ break. I've played 30 hours like one guy mentioned above and am still in the first city near the very beginning of the game and find new stuff and exploring etc and not once has the game become dull or boring, it's been the opposite in fact. Try playing the game awhile before you start spouting random ♥♥♥♥ and comparing it to 15 year old games. Seriously. I guarantee this game will provide over 100 hours of fun. As far as I've found it is open world, I can choose to go wherever I want to go, so I don't see what you're saying there, not to mention the graphics are awesome and I can zoom in on my characters and see them in detail if I choose to, there has not been a single bad thing about this game as of yet and yes like the same guy mentioned above there are merchants everywhere and in fact you can trade with anyone you talk to in the game, so basically every single person is a merchant. People with steam level 0 locked profiles are sketchy at best.

[Scerene]

you have really bizarre and contradictory standards for rpgs lockmort. It seems anything that you really like=true rpg, and the things that you arent so satisfied arent a true rpg :p how anybody can suggest that skyrim has better writing than dragon age is beyond me, and ive spent over 200 hours on both games, so i know what i am talking about. skyrim has non existent companions, npcs with no personality,,main quest is very bare, the world itself lacks personality, boring npc interaction. the only interesting storyline it had was the dark brotherhood, the rest of the time you are running around aimlessly or doing one of the boring faction quests.