Baldur's Gate vs. Divinity Original Sin -- Difficulty, Gameplay etc.

[raubrey]

It's very easy to become sentimental about a game and overlook its flaws, and both Baldur's Gate and D:OS are no exception. That said I think some of us have been hypercritical of Divinity Original Sin – fan or not.

By this I mean, I have started my 3rd or 4th replay of BG/ Enhanced and had forgotten some things, things which people tend to complain about in this game.

Difficulty: Goodness, I forgot how hilariously hard BG can be --some might use the word unbalanced.

After losing my party at level 1 to one vampire dog and his friend (and reloading because there are no resurrection spells (like in D:OS) only temples and I'm dirt poor) I went to one of the towns.

I had to laugh at the massacre that took 10 reloads to get through – at an Inn no less. (You have to rest in BG -- a feature I miss).

I think I usually die in this particular fight (because of the charm) while my companions save the day, but my character was a stronger dual-wield kensai build and instead was charmed and stayed alive long enough to kill half my party (after the enemy is dead, a civilian (if I move the party outside) and may or may not die myself depending on the situation.

I eventually got through this but there is nothing that compares with this fiasco early game in D:OS. Generally cities are safe, certainly inn's and generally you can see the level of an enemy and have time to run (though I could/should have scouted when the vampire dog hit, I'm not sure it would have mattered – I simply went the “wrong way”).

Camera Angle: A lot of people don't like the limited rotation of the camera While I do prefer NWN and the ability to do a 360 degree turn, in Baldur's Gate you can't turn the camera at all.

Movement: Party movement is at least as slow in BG, and probably slower unless you mod/hack it.

Money: I think money is too easy to obtain in D:OS but I'm kind of glad – at least thieves can do something. Money is so scarce in BG – I think both games go to the extreme.

Character Building: I think D:OS wins this hands down with all the skills/abilities. I am still partial to NWN 1-2 but I find it much more enjoyable than in BG.

In any event, I am sure I will come across more things that I like more or less in Divinity OS vs. BG but my point is that it is easy to miss the improvements D:OS has in game balance and the like as long as you take the game slow and watch where you are going. No bull in a china shop here or BG for that matter.

In my opinion, Baldur's gate has a better story and dialog (to a degree – Larian has a unique style) whereas D:OS has a very good story but somehow it is less immersion (this can be due to any number of factors and of course is subjective).

At the end of the day I give D:OS an 8/10 and think Larian did a darn fine job at modernizing a cRPG.

But I'll say one thing, if you are new to the genre play Baldur's Gate first (BG 2 is better if I recall) and THEN play D:OS. You may find you appreciate the game even more.

(And yes, I know Ultima and the like was even harder).

So with all the new people asking about BG vs. D:OS, what is your take on the two?


*still laughing about killing my own party and a civillian* BG charm spells -- ugh!

[Dorok]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Dude:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Warren:

Didn't know of this Baulder's Gate, gonna try it.

- looks at the cave youve been living in -

You'll love the Baldurs Gate series... not to mention Icewind Dale 1 and 2.

Looks at the cave where you'll hide forever when you'll suffer the shame...

He knew Baldur's Gate, but not Bauldur's Gate. :-)

[Ryulightorb]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Dude:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Warren:

Didn't know of this Baulder's Gate, gonna try it.

- looks at the cave youve been living in -

You'll love the Baldurs Gate series... not to mention Icewind Dale 1 and 2.

+
may not for example i tried baulders gate and hated it so much.

[ArchAngel]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von raubrey:

It's worth checking it out, thanks for commenting on the mod.


Me thinks I should revise my OP though as I am playing BG2 and I am gnashing teeth. I don't remember it being so dang difficult (either I played on Easy or cheated or both) -- much WORSE than D:OS and even BG1.

NWN had judicious use of level drain (not counting MoTB -- though fine given char/comp level) and plenty of equipment and easy to find spells for Death Magic. In BG 2 there is no clue what direction one should take with enemies. The amount of googling necessary to get through the game is so distracting.

And losing comps is the biggest pain in the arse as it was in BG1 but I didn't have it happen much on it.

I'll get it down eventually, but THANK YOU LARIAN for not implementing one of the most annoying systems ever -- level drain.

I know I'm getting old but geez....

There are multiple ways to stop level drain. Barbarians (or beserkers) are immune to it while raging. One of the paladin subclasses are immune, clerics have a lvl 4 or 5 spell that protects against level drain and spells that remove it once you get it (and you can remove it in any temple). Other ways to fight vs it are: Don't travel around city at night (logical conclusion when dealing with vampires....) or get money for the Shadow Thieves fast and the leader will give you an amulet that gives level drain immunity. Put that on your forward tank character and be sure to always aggro vampires with that guy.

It is really not hard, especially the don't travel at night part because everyone and their mother knows vampires cannot function during day.

[raubrey]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von archangel:

There are multiple ways to stop level drain. Barbarians (or beserkers) are immune to it while raging. One of the paladin subclasses are immune, clerics have a lvl 4 or 5 spell that protects against level drain and spells that remove it once you get it (and you can remove it in any temple). Other ways to fight vs it are: Don't travel around city at night (logical conclusion when dealing with vampires....) or get money for the Shadow Thieves fast and the leader will give you an amulet that gives level drain immunity. Put that on your forward tank character and be sure to always aggro vampires with that guy.

Thing is these things are not available right away and/or are class dependent. Lesser Restoration isn't and will not remove certain effects (I forget which) and I have have neither a Barb or a Paladin. The night travel you learn quick but I also got the drain by traveling out of the city -- via shadows. I figured since I got the quest early to go to Umar Hills it wouldn't be that hard. The temple is so expensive too -- be it curing or ressurection, when you're suppose to be raising 20K. (not counting equipment/potions etc.)

The game is fairly easy now at level 10 (I read there is hard stuff to come) but finishing the whole thieves guild questline is part of what made a difference (with the amulet) and now I have protection against negative energy that can be cast on 2 comps. I was dual classing too -- such that is raved about kensai mage. Yeah, it's great now but it was a bit tough for a bit.

It's still a pretty complex game with spells and enemies...there are pages on the stuff and many specifics. Some things I know need only non-magical or blunt damage but again this is still more complicated than D:0S is this regard (whereas you mostly need to keep track of elements)...in my opinion. Game is fun though (when it's not tedious) -- like the quests/story much better than B1.

[Dorok]

Level drain is still tedious even if there's tools to temper it.

[raubrey]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dorok:

Level drain is still tedious even if there's tools to temper it.

AAA-men. Like Death Magic, occasional enemies or mini-bosses fine, but mobs...no thanks.

[ArchAngel]

Shadows don't drain levels, only strenght. Wights drain levels. I never had problems with Death Magic, it made the game more diverse and dangerous. I actually hate that no modern games have permanent effects like these that need to be removed with extra effort. Even PoE will have effects that last only until next rest, blah.

[raubrey]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von archangel:

Shadows don't drain levels, only strenght. Wights drain levels. I never had problems with Death Magic, it made the game more diverse and dangerous. I actually hate that no modern games have permanent effects like these that need to be removed with extra effort. Even PoE will have effects that last only until next rest, blah.

Please don't nitpick my comment ... shadows/wrights as both are a pain and I still had an expensive temple bill -- and traveling out of the area didn't help immersion much. The snow leopard fighting my group at the same time was a nice touch (sarcasm).

Otherwise I respect your opinion, and I never said I didn't like these things, I just think that a game can go overboard on it as I think BG2 did in parts.

I'm glad D;OS didn't but yes I would like some effects. Neverwinter is very balanced on this -- this is of course an opinion. I still think BG2 is harder (the base system and what you need to know to counter or even hurt enemies) than this game which surprises me as I don't remember it being so. Bad Shadowkeeper, bad.

I love Death Magic as long as you have a reasonable chance to protect yourself against it -- and it is done so at the cost of offensive spells/equipment.

It probably doesn't help that I have SO many hours in NWN or 3ed ed D&D and BG is 2nd ed and I get mangled up on the spell durations etc.

[Lock]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von raubrey:

It's very easy to become sentimental about a game and overlook its flaws, and both Baldur's Gate and D:OS are no exception. That said I think some of us have been hypercritical of Divinity Original Sin – fan or not.

By this I mean, I have started my 3rd or 4th replay of BG/ Enhanced and had forgotten some things, things which people tend to complain about in this game.

Difficulty: Goodness, I forgot how hilariously hard BG can be --some might use the word unbalanced.

After losing my party at level 1 to one vampire dog and his friend (and reloading because there are no resurrection spells (like in D:OS) only temples and I'm dirt poor) I went to one of the towns.

I had to laugh at the massacre that took 10 reloads to get through – at an Inn no less. (You have to rest in BG -- a feature I miss).

I think I usually die in this particular fight (because of the charm) while my companions save the day, but my character was a stronger dual-wield kensai build and instead was charmed and stayed alive long enough to kill half my party (after the enemy is dead, a civilian (if I move the party outside) and may or may not die myself depending on the situation.

I eventually got through this but there is nothing that compares with this fiasco early game in D:OS. Generally cities are safe, certainly inn's and generally you can see the level of an enemy and have time to run (though I could/should have scouted when the vampire dog hit, I'm not sure it would have mattered – I simply went the “wrong way”).

Camera Angle: A lot of people don't like the limited rotation of the camera While I do prefer NWN and the ability to do a 360 degree turn, in Baldur's Gate you can't turn the camera at all.

Movement: Party movement is at least as slow in BG, and probably slower unless you mod/hack it.

Money: I think money is too easy to obtain in D:OS but I'm kind of glad – at least thieves can do something. Money is so scarce in BG – I think both games go to the extreme.

Character Building: I think D:OS wins this hands down with all the skills/abilities. I am still partial to NWN 1-2 but I find it much more enjoyable than in BG.

In any event, I am sure I will come across more things that I like more or less in Divinity OS vs. BG but my point is that it is easy to miss the improvements D:OS has in game balance and the like as long as you take the game slow and watch where you are going. No bull in a china shop here or BG for that matter.

In my opinion, Baldur's gate has a better story and dialog (to a degree – Larian has a unique style) whereas D:OS has a very good story but somehow it is less immersion (this can be due to any number of factors and of course is subjective).

At the end of the day I give D:OS an 8/10 and think Larian did a darn fine job at modernizing a cRPG.

But I'll say one thing, if you are new to the genre play Baldur's Gate first (BG 2 is better if I recall) and THEN play D:OS. You may find you appreciate the game even more.

(And yes, I know Ultima and the like was even harder).

So with all the new people asking about BG vs. D:OS, what is your take on the two?


*still laughing about killing my own party and a civillian* BG charm spells -- ugh!

This game holds nothing against BG1 & 2. It's still pretty good though. But storywise, characterwise and plotwise it's plain bad. I think people are raving about it because there hasn't been a game like this in quite some time and this is done pretty well. I'm waiting for Pillars of Eternity to be truely blown away though.

[aclyte]

Storyline, Characters, Dialogs, Atmosphere - of course BG - BG is a VERY good book in form of a game.
Graphics, Interface, Battles - DOS - it's just more modern.

I d't want to say that DOS is bad, no, it's great, but BG is a masterpiece and it'll be VERY hard for any game to push it from 1st place of RPG.

[magicmazuma]

I love both .. And both have there pros and cons.

I say Larian Studios did one hell of a job with this title. Fact that a lot of ppl consider this to be right up there with some of the all time classics says enough. Very refreshing to see the genre beeing revived in this manner.

[Bob3]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von archangel:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von raubrey:

It's worth checking it out, thanks for commenting on the mod.


Me thinks I should revise my OP though as I am playing BG2 and I am gnashing teeth. I don't remember it being so dang difficult (either I played on Easy or cheated or both) -- much WORSE than D:OS and even BG1.

NWN had judicious use of level drain (not counting MoTB -- though fine given char/comp level) and plenty of equipment and easy to find spells for Death Magic. In BG 2 there is no clue what direction one should take with enemies. The amount of googling necessary to get through the game is so distracting.

And losing comps is the biggest pain in the arse as it was in BG1 but I didn't have it happen much on it.

I'll get it down eventually, but THANK YOU LARIAN for not implementing one of the most annoying systems ever -- level drain.

I know I'm getting old but geez....

There are multiple ways to stop level drain. Barbarians (or beserkers) are immune to it while raging. One of the paladin subclasses are immune, clerics have a lvl 4 or 5 spell that protects against level drain and spells that remove it once you get it (and you can remove it in any temple). Other ways to fight vs it are: Don't travel around city at night (logical conclusion when dealing with vampires....) or get money for the Shadow Thieves fast and the leader will give you an amulet that gives level drain immunity. Put that on your forward tank character and be sure to always aggro vampires with that guy.

It is really not hard, especially the don't travel at night part because everyone and their mother knows vampires cannot function during day.

It wasn't hard, it was just tedious to deal with. It's one of those mechanics that fit well in P&P D&D, but didn't translate too well in CRPG form.

[raubrey]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Whiteboy:

It wasn't hard, it was just tedious to deal with. It's one of those mechanics that fit well in P&P D&D, but didn't translate too well in CRPG form.

Telling someone something is not hard (so common on Steam) or difficult is just silly. Each person has their own background , perceptions and skillset coming into a game -- and the rest of life's endeavors. Some people find cooking a fried egg over easy, hard, while others create glorious quiche.

Of course it's not hard for someone who plays P&P or has a background in it. Meanwhile, no PC game is hard really...climbing a mountain is "hard," but rather a game can be tedious, obscure or mentally (and/or reflex) challanging if we get down to it. OK so BG2 and DoS can be tediou -- same difference really..If overdone itl takes away from the game and generally is referred to as "hard" or "difficult." Some people like tedious, apparently.

Otherwise, there are about 300 spells in BG -- I know most of them from playing D&D PC games but still not all of them. That is a crazy amount for a new player.

Then there are all these atypical quirks...mages can't cast elemental summons without going into a state called "mental combat" (making it worthless) -- I've seen it with some spells in other games but not elementals which seems like mage 101 to me.

There is a lot to memorize and then you have oddball names like Abu Zhu Horrid Wilting Die Already, that may be fine for roleplay but do nothing to help one keep track of things. I like that Larian calls Teleport, "Teleport" and not, "Winstead's Displacement of Air." (okay that didn't read well).

Anyway -- I love both games, BG more so far, even if they can be tedious, obscure, challanging, fun and sometimes hard -- so to speak.


P.S. I hope Pillars of Eternity is less tedious.

[PocketYoda]

Weird i played all of these games Baldurs Gates 1 and 2, Frostwind Dale, Planescape etc and i don't remember too many deaths in them, occasional cheap stuff but nothing i'd call insanely hard, the party members would fight and leave occasionally though..

Maybe i just got lucky, was years ago i played them.

[MoNKeZi]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von kaiyl_kariashi:

The best D&D game to date is Temple of Elemental Evil, without contest. THAT is how a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ D&D game should be played. (post-Co8 fix-pack of course). The only way they could've improved it was add the ability to climb, jump, and fly.

Here I thought I was the only guy out there that thought this. TOEE was and still is to this day the only accurately represented Dungeons and Dragons computer game, not only this, but they recreated THE BEST Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper dungeon T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil (A pristine copy of this module is now worth over $1500 to collectors). It ♥♥♥♥♥ me to tears that Troika were villified over this game, because if they had been given more time and funding, they could have made a toolset for the TOEE engine and the modding community could have had a field day recreating all the old D&D classics.

I enjoyed the Baldurs Gate series when they were new, but I do not put it up on a pedestal like many people do. Temple of Elemental Evil was a much better game with a much better story that wasn't based around some ridiculous "chosen one" cliche.