Baldur's Gate vs. Divinity Original Sin -- Difficulty, Gameplay etc.

[raubrey]

It's very easy to become sentimental about a game and overlook its flaws, and both Baldur's Gate and D:OS are no exception. That said I think some of us have been hypercritical of Divinity Original Sin – fan or not.

By this I mean, I have started my 3rd or 4th replay of BG/ Enhanced and had forgotten some things, things which people tend to complain about in this game.

Difficulty: Goodness, I forgot how hilariously hard BG can be --some might use the word unbalanced.

After losing my party at level 1 to one vampire dog and his friend (and reloading because there are no resurrection spells (like in D:OS) only temples and I'm dirt poor) I went to one of the towns.

I had to laugh at the massacre that took 10 reloads to get through – at an Inn no less. (You have to rest in BG -- a feature I miss).

I think I usually die in this particular fight (because of the charm) while my companions save the day, but my character was a stronger dual-wield kensai build and instead was charmed and stayed alive long enough to kill half my party (after the enemy is dead, a civilian (if I move the party outside) and may or may not die myself depending on the situation.

I eventually got through this but there is nothing that compares with this fiasco early game in D:OS. Generally cities are safe, certainly inn's and generally you can see the level of an enemy and have time to run (though I could/should have scouted when the vampire dog hit, I'm not sure it would have mattered – I simply went the “wrong way”).

Camera Angle: A lot of people don't like the limited rotation of the camera While I do prefer NWN and the ability to do a 360 degree turn, in Baldur's Gate you can't turn the camera at all.

Movement: Party movement is at least as slow in BG, and probably slower unless you mod/hack it.

Money: I think money is too easy to obtain in D:OS but I'm kind of glad – at least thieves can do something. Money is so scarce in BG – I think both games go to the extreme.

Character Building: I think D:OS wins this hands down with all the skills/abilities. I am still partial to NWN 1-2 but I find it much more enjoyable than in BG.

In any event, I am sure I will come across more things that I like more or less in Divinity OS vs. BG but my point is that it is easy to miss the improvements D:OS has in game balance and the like as long as you take the game slow and watch where you are going. No bull in a china shop here or BG for that matter.

In my opinion, Baldur's gate has a better story and dialog (to a degree – Larian has a unique style) whereas D:OS has a very good story but somehow it is less immersion (this can be due to any number of factors and of course is subjective).

At the end of the day I give D:OS an 8/10 and think Larian did a darn fine job at modernizing a cRPG.

But I'll say one thing, if you are new to the genre play Baldur's Gate first (BG 2 is better if I recall) and THEN play D:OS. You may find you appreciate the game even more.

(And yes, I know Ultima and the like was even harder).

So with all the new people asking about BG vs. D:OS, what is your take on the two?


*still laughing about killing my own party and a civillian* BG charm spells -- ugh!

[Diomedes]

raubrey の投稿を引用：

Burning Naked Man の投稿を引用：

Thank you, I thought I was the only one.. BG2's is a great game, but the combat is indeed awful.. And I can't stand that damned real time with pause system.. Either make it completely real time and build a system around that, or make it turn based..

Turn off the AI (and turn on autopause) and then it is turned-based and still based on rounds. But for that matter, what is wrong with pause-play it's just another format? I guess all the people that like Kotor, DA, ME, etc. are wrong...

Opinions are fine, but why wholesale attack a sub-genre simply because you don't like it for unclear reasons?

...... Mass Effect isn't a real time pause game to begin with, it doesn't rely off dice rolls nor basing it's rule set off a table top game.... And no it is not a turn based game.. It tries to be in a real time environment leading to huge imbalances in gameplay.. Get over it, BG2 is over a decade old we can come to the conclusion that one of the weak parts of the game was indeed the combat.. Positioning was non existent, due to the real time nature they severely cut down on options of basically any kind of melee character........ Let's not forget the god awful balancing of the game with numerous broken skills and classes..
The pause play system is sh!t because it has tried to adapt a turnbased game into it, leading to alot of broken abilities and things not working as they should.. This isn't saying the game is bad, it is one of the best rpg's ever made.. But even such a game has it's problems.. Which was my point...

[hairyscotsman]

kaiyl_kariashi の投稿を引用：

BG though has the big problem of being a HORRIBLE adaption of the rule-set it's VERY loosely based on. The combat is also terrible, and most of the kits and several of the spells are broken beyond belief. I literally can't enjoy playing the game anymore because it. (aside from my personal mod, which I've been slowly fixing what I can...but unfortunately..the holy grail of true turn-based will never happen).

It does have a pretty solid story, though SoA suffers a little towards the end due to rushing, and TOB is a horrible, linear piece of ♥♥♥♥.

The best D&D game to date is Temple of Elemental Evil, without contest. THAT is how a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ D&D game should be played. (post-Co8 fix-pack of course). The only way they could've improved it was add the ability to climb, jump, and fly.

D&D ruleset does not a good PC game make. Only one suited to a PC game was 4e (it was more suited to a PC game than pen and paper) and it, ironically never got one. D&D is inherently unbalanced and riddled with insta-win powers. Lost a fight? Reload until the big bad fails it's save vs death.
It's why I'm REALLY glad PoE will have it's own system.

NOW, I loved BG and I've played a lot of different D&D since 1984, but what was running under the hood was not optimal for a PC game.

[Baloo]

Baldurs Gate walkthrough. Make sure every partymember have a range weapon equiped and then steamroll everything. Note: every class can use a sling and dont underestimate the slingshot with some extra +3 rocks to throw.
Well there are some fights in shadows of amn that are a bit tricky but with some preporations they can easily be handled. And for the money part in the game... the same thing goes for divinity, crimes do pay and i never had money issues in Baldurs Gate or Divinity.

So i don´t know wich game is the "best", both are good games and both deserves to be played through. After hundreds of hours in baldurs gate divinity feels new and i welcome it.

[raubrey]

hicuty の投稿を引用：

I played BG1 and BG2 countless times after their initial release, i think they were epic (especially the second one) for their time. The greatness comes from the sense of not limiting you with strict rules to spells or items or characters. Today's games witcher, dragon age vs apply strict rule in terms of spells, item properties in a certain context. What i mean is that in BG2 you can find a very powerful item which sets your charisma 18 or a pantaloon stuff which makes you look like an iron golem when you wear it or a djinn flask that summon a djinn. It felt like really powerful and creative stuff (which game allows you to time stop and slaugther enemies with with katanas like kensai/mage? or summoning an angelic servant that has better spells than your level 20+ cleric? or wishing powerful abilities from gods?) This sense of creativity ranges from enemies like dragons, powerful demons(even a demon prince) or characters like jan jansen, viconia, edwin and to quests and the art styles. I think this creativity and fun playstyle is narrowed down in modern rpgs. Those are my thoughts about BG series.

This is an example of a well-written opinion in short form. And by the way, this was never meant to be a dog BG thread even if there are criticisms of it -- but more of a play BG first and then complain about D:OS if you dare. It (the OP) is also an appreciation of what things Larian improved over older cRPGs, though I didn't include all the bits.

Both games have charm and both faults and you wrote some really inspiring words about the series that I do agree with.

That's one thing about great games -- you can overlook a LOT if they "got it." And of course a first-playthrough especially in years prior BG was the bomb. Such is why I finished Gothic 3 with its 100+ CTDs. (crashes), it had something special as I think both of these games do.

And the main reason I brought up BG is it seems that daily that is being asked about -- how this game compares etc. which it probably is about as close a comparison as you can get...close enough anyway as to style.

[raubrey]

Dorok の投稿を引用：

raubrey の投稿を引用：

...
And stuff like Detect Traps is borked beyond belief in this game -- admittedly I've not seen it ever at 100% functional in an RPG if the trap system is invisible/visible.
...

I wonder if you really quoted the trap gameplay. There's multiple parameters:

...stuff

So for me it's from far the best trap system I ever played. It's hugely better than in BG1&2 and I don't remember a RPG that did better.

What are you talking about? (Voice warnings etc.) I am referring to traps not showing up in BG 1 (the topic of said post) when at early level 1-2 your skill is 60.

[raubrey]

Burning Naked Man の投稿を引用：

raubrey の投稿を引用：

Turn off the AI (and turn on autopause) and then it is turned-based and still based on rounds. But for that matter, what is wrong with pause-play it's just another format? I guess all the people that like Kotor, DA, ME, etc. are wrong...

Opinions are fine, but why wholesale attack a sub-genre simply because you don't like it for unclear reasons?

...... Mass Effect isn't a real time pause game to begin with, it doesn't rely off dice rolls nor basing it's rule set off a table top game.... And no it is not a turn based game.. It tries to be in a real time environment leading to huge imbalances in gameplay.. Get over it, BG2 is over a decade old we can come to the conclusion that one of the weak parts of the game was indeed the combat.. Positioning was non existent, due to the real time nature they severely cut down on options of basically any kind of melee character........ Let's not forget the god awful balancing of the game with numerous broken skills and classes..
The pause play system is sh!t because it has tried to adapt a turnbased game into it, leading to alot of broken abilities and things not working as they should.. This isn't saying the game is bad, it is one of the best rpg's ever made.. But even such a game has it's problems.. Which was my point...

I think you need to "Get over it" -- there was nothing in my post that should of incited a negative response You're the one ranting about what "sucks" in a wholesale fashion.. If you don't agree, fine, just state your opinion. I don't agree with much of what you said here -- including the general definition of pause and play. Get over that. :D

P.S. Some people call it real-time with pause but like BG, you can play ME real-time but a lot of players end up pausing enough (as forums reiterate and as is needed for companions) that it is for *practical* purposes a pause and play game of the ilk we're talking about. ME 3 required less pausing on lower difficulties due to the aggressive AI.

[raubrey]

Bullseye の投稿を引用：

B Every class can use a sling

No. Check Kensai. I wish it could though, kinda silly in my opinion.

Thas said, I do agree with you that range rules as it does in too many games. I am actually pretty impressed with the warrior-style viability in D:OS. Man-At-Arms is a decent line with heals and some limited CC.

[Dorok]

Mmm Gothic 3 was a so high disappointment for me. But honestly I could have go over the feeling of a too high dilution when compared to Gothic 2 NotR. But I never enjoyed the combats, and the users "fixes" never help anything in that matter.

That feeling of playing a huge game is also a matter of personal experience. I bet you hadn't played G2 nor G1 with you played G3 and it did help you.

So there's a part of subjectivity in that feeling, but for me that's exactly the point. Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Might & Magic 3, Lands Of Lore, Ultima Underworld, Ultima 7, Fallout 1, Baldur's Gate 1&2, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Morrowind, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Gothic 2 NotR, NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer, The Witcher 1, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect 2&3, Legend of Grimrock, Dragonfall, and now DoS.

For all play them was clearly a huge game, some have awful flaws, I didn't even finished some of them, everybody with its own list, but for all they was clearly huge. And frankly if I put Dragon Age Origins it's only after the first replay, I tried and fail play 3 times Morrowind before to finally enter in its gameplay. I know Grimrock is a lot a clone, Underworld and Ultima 7 have plain awful combats. I hate System Shock 2 respawning, Mass Effect 2&3 are a bit light and action plus dialogs/companions oriented, and more negative elements for this one of that one.

But big RPG and DoS is so clearly one, morever rather unique in it's general approach.

[Dorok]

raubrey の投稿を引用：

What are you talking about? I am referring to traps not showing up in BG 1 (the topic of said post) when at early level 1-2 your skill is 60.

Ha ha sorry. :-) I don't remember problems with that in BG1 but not a top trap system I agree but I have seen worse.

[Vythica]

FFS Its Spelt "Baldur's Gate" :P

I Loved 1 and 2....2 and the expansion being my fav <3.

I still think lore/story of BG 2 was better then DOS. Same with the music. BG Music was amazing.

However the overall package of DOS is better, i really enjoy the coop side of it. I really did not like mplayer in BG 1 or 2. Everytime someone in your party spoke , you all had to watch it, even when they sold/bought ugh. Very little freedom. Combat in Dos is way better too.

I miss the unique characters though...Viconia...Minsc etc...and the romance sub plots and deep party member stories.

Dont get me wrong though. DOS is really good.

Edit : To add, if they had to make BG 2 all over again with the DOS Engine/CombatMplayer...word for word, even the same voices etc. It would be way better then DOS.

[raubrey]

Vythica の投稿を引用：

FFS Its Spelt "Baldur's Gate" :P

FFS I messed up my spell/replace...and have crappy vision. :p

[raubrey]

Vythica の投稿を引用：

I still think lore/story of BG 2 was better then DOS. Same with the music. BG Music was amazing.

I'm glad someone mentioned this and I was really surprised that I was disappointed in the music in D:OS as I am a huge fan of Krill's work. The theme to DKS is one of my favorite game-derived songs ever and in general. It's not that the music was bad but it did nothing for the ambiance of the game or somehow felt conflicting to me.

I'm with ya on a BG redo too... if only for future players. The game has been imitated to death (faults and all) --often in poor fashion -- and for good reason.

Jaheira: If a tree falls in a forest... I'll kill the bastard what done it!

Most unexpected druid line...ever. :D

[Dorok]

Vythica の投稿を引用：

Edit : To add, if they had to make BG 2 all over again with the DOS Engine/CombatMplayer...word for word, even the same voices etc. It would be way better then DOS.

I don't agree that turn based combats and graphics are the only point for DoS vs BG2.
- The puzzling/problems to solve in DoS is much more dense, with a much larger amount, and better diversified.
- The whole crafting element is quite missing in BG2.
- The trap system of DoS is much better in DoS and quite better used.
- The stealth/steal/pickpocket system is much better in DoS and quite better exploited.
- I suspect your memory make you overevaluate the BG2 quests or it's me that underevaluate BG2 quest, but they don't have the same diversity and depth than in DoS, it's just a matter of puzzles/tricks/problems to solve that allow DoS quests be much better and much more diversified.
- BG2 just doesn't have the same gameplay density than DoS, it relies too much on dialogs and combats.

Now BG2 is bigger, on a quite larger world, quite higher diversity of enemies/spells/items, more epic, the companions has a unique level of depth this includes interactions between companions, Baldur's Gate 2 combats difficulty is much better tuned than in DoS. On the writing DoS is quite solid and has many good elements like no boring books when BG2 has ton of awfully boring books. And BG2 has a too serious mood, failed attempts of gore, some more weakness, but overall better writing than in DoS.

[Szoreny Klepko]

raubrey の投稿を引用：

Turn off the AI (and turn on autopause) and then it is turned-based and still based on rounds. But for that matter, what is wrong with pause-play it's just another format? I guess all the people that like Kotor, DA, ME, etc. are wrong...

This is probably sufficiently explored, but switching on auto-pause at round end doesn't magically make the RTwP system turn-based.

Even if we ignore the fact that the rules conversions were designed from the ground up to work in real-time, the most fundamental difference between your auto-pausing BG setup and a Turn Based system is that all character's 'rounds' are still progressing simultaneously.

Auto pause on spell cast is probably the only setting that's practical to use, - to maximize the efficiency of cheesy spell combos like those time-stop scroll equipped projected images with power word death and spell triggers full of abi dalzims!

Fun, but stupid.

[Szoreny Klepko]

raubrey の投稿を引用：

Vythica の投稿を引用：

I still think lore/story of BG 2 was better then DOS. Same with the music. BG Music was amazing.

I'm glad someone mentioned this and I was really surprised that I was disappointed in the music in D:OS as I am a huge fan of Krill's work. The theme to DKS is one of my favorite game-derived songs ever and in general. It's not that the music was bad but it did nothing for the ambiance of the game or somehow felt conflicting to me.

I'm with ya on a BG redo too... if only for future players. The game has been imitated to death (faults and all) --often in poor fashion -- and for good reason.

Jaheira: If a tree falls in a forest... I'll kill the bastard what done it!

Most unexpected druid line...ever. :D

Kirill was out of action for a lot of OS developement apparently, - a lot of the tracks in OS are from other Divinity games and previous unreleased work.

I don't remember loving a lot of BG music, - always liked those 'natural' sounding tavern themes though. BG2's Athkatla market theme was alos a lot of fun.

Also in ToB I think was the first time I'd heard Inon Zur, and some of that music still seems like his best work to me. Some of those themes like the approach to Yaga Shura's mountain just keep going up and up like some B-movie sword and sandals music shot to hell with amphetamines, - its insane.