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討論區規矩與守則
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Choosing to be practical over romantic will cost you 5 ability points. an expensive price for roleplaying the way you want.
Could be just for a very delimited category of RPG players, but for them it means firstly gameplay values that gradually disappeared in modern RPG gameplay. And that meaning is very strong and full of significant.
Here some gameplay elements that gradually disappeared in RPG hence it's natural to qualify them old school:
1 - Plenty puzzles including many quite difficult and many quite merged to the progression.
2 - Many secrets including many close to impossible to find.
3 - Plenty tricks of various categories to find or solve, it's not really pure puzzles or secrets.
4 - Complex party RPG combats with deep tactic.
5 - Turn based combats.
6 - A lot of text to read vs everything with vocal acting in modern RPG.
7 - No compass, no exclamation marks on quest/information givers, no quests markers. All in all restrained hand guiding by opposition to heavy hand guiding in modern RPG.
8 - Crafting based on decipher stuff and guessing recipes by opposition of collecting ingredients and clicking in a list of recipes.
There's more. If I stick to this list, I'd say for D:OS:
1 + 2 + 4 : More old school than not.
6 + 7 : Much more old school with some modern influences
3 + 5 : Totally old school.
8 : That point is ambiguous because beside Ultima 7 I don't remember much old school games using this approach of crafting, in general most old CRPG hadn't much crafting.
You could try do this with games as Skyrim, The Witcher, Dragon Age Origins, all will have few old school qualities, but none as much than D:OS and from far.
But yeah D:OS has also many elements coming from modern, like using sometimes quests markers, like many vocals, like a developed rogue system, like crafting with many influences coming from modern too, like the randomization of items, more.
EDIT: And if you apply such list to a game as Baldur's Gate 1, you'll end in conclusion that it is less old school than D:OS.
Kingdoms of Amalur: the Reckoning plays a lot like a single player MMO...this game not so much. I think you are romanticizing older RPGs. BG was also a search for xp, and for better items. The only major difference was that levels came slower, and items less often.
The only thing I'll grant you is the level declaration. I can't think of another classic RPG off the top of my head in which enemies declare their levels.
Ultimately, I don't see the similarities much between D:OS and an MMO.
5- not a must, in the past turn base was important because you could have fluent combat. now day with all the advance graphics and computer capabilities is turn base really a requirement? with that said I enjoy original sin turn base combat buts its not important for an rpg to have turn base combat on my opinion as my most favorite games of all time are mass effect 2 witcher 2 and suprise suprise myth 2. (there is something about those 2...)
6) read is great because it cut on voice acting costs and enable to deliver more content . however games still need to monitor themselves and notice they don't just dump any wrtiten texts into their gamres.
7) i think all games should avoid marking their points, it makes the games much more immersive but there still more actions to take before a game is immersive.
8) The crafting still needs to be fun to do, including a mini game could solve this. in general i do not encourage crafting because crafting in real life is time consuming. and its often break immersion to have your hero who is running on limited time open a a shop in the city bazzar.
1-4 i agree
But even with those good old school influences there too many mmorpg influence which are only there to consume your time and are unintiatative to how you supposed to act if you were a source hunter. Very early in the game you are pushed to robbery in order to fund skills and items you were already suppose to start with and there are no consquences to your actions the game encourage you to rob everyone blind, it is built on it.
This is in order to distract you from the fact that there are no cool or important things to do with your money.
Money has no importance in original sin - story or fun wise.
But you have plenty of way point and pyramids, so its not a turn base(plenty of turn base mmos) Xp and item grinding is all around you in original sin. you could have started the game on level 10 but why didn't you? -
I avoided kingdom of amalur and similar rpgs for exactly thqat reason. yes baldurs gate had a search for exprience but it had more explroring athmoshere and its also important to remember the time baldurs gate was released, you already exprienced the all level up and item race nowdays game should be more focused on the quality of their content.
Take witcher, mass effect or dragon age. do you think it would make a difference if those games had no levels?
In all my last runs through the mass effect series i didnt level up or buy upgrades. I only focused on the story and gameplay. If you cut the level up and items search in original sin you cut the game by half.
I wasn't arguing on quality but purely on how old school or not it was. To make it clear, "old school = good / modern school = bad", isn't my opinion. Secondly the list I made quickly is quite short.
About the turn based goodness, I'm not sure yet, well I'm sure I want more, not sure what I can expect for party RPG and other systems about combats depths.
So the problem is to control a party, there isn't much choices:
- Turn based and then you can really control fully a party.
- You control fully with a real time action spirit a full party, for example Syndicate. Well that limits a lot the tactical depth.
- Real time and control one character when the AI fully control companions/followers. Again it limits a lot tactical depth.
- Real time with pause. With BG1 where you don't have micro manage much many characters of the party (long range/close range) it works well. With BG2 it starts work less well. With DA series it shows the limit when all characters potentially can have a heavy detailed management. It pushes the gameplay to Action and mainly focus controlling one character, with only some rare general management and sometimes switch to control another character.
To evaluate well the situation for party RPG there's two problems:
- There isn't enough examples of Party RPG Real time with pause, eventually the coming Pillars or the new DA could change the perspective.
- In my opinion the strategic and tactical design knowledge/experience of the teams that made the recent party RPG turn based hadn't the same quality and experience level than in old school party RPG turn based as SSI RPG.
Know I understand better how shocking is for me your OP, you just ignore plenty CRPG genre in old school area.
I'm not arguing that the game couldn't be better. That would be an absurd argument, since it would require proving that D:OS is the best game possible, which is absurd. That being said, I've played a lot of MMOs and I just don't see it. MMOs, in my mind, are generally defined partially by the fact that enemies respawn, the world is populated by lots of players, the effects of your actions aren't persistent (you completing a quest doesn't mean that the next player can't). The mechanics and style of an MMO is defined by what it must needs do to satisfy the multiplayer aspect. D:OS makes almost none of those concessions.
I'm not saying that there's nothing in common between an MMO and D:OS. Certainly, an MMORPG is an RPG, and D:OS is an RPG, so there will be overlap, and I'm not denying that you have subjectively experienced a common factor between the two that you find distasteful. I'm sure your OP was in good faith, but I don't see it. D:OS allows you to play it the way you might an MMO, but it doesn't require it. Moreover, the major differences stand out to me more than the similarities (which are arguably similar between most RPGs). It should be noted that I don't count Mass Effect as an RPG. The fact that you can beat it without leveling at all, if anything, secures it as a FPS, with some RPG elements. It tells a great story, but ultimately RPGs are defined by their leveling mechanics, and have been since the creation of the game genre back with DnD. Essentially, RPG's came about as an evolution of military wargames. The added feature was character development as determined through leveling.
If were to list all the games in which you didn't need to 'level' to beat the game, you'd find they are almost all FPS, platformers, adventure and simple action games. Leveling is part of the core set of mechanics that make RPGs, whether CRPGs or JRPGs, stand apart from other games. Citing leveling mechanics as a similarity to MMOs, therefore, feels a bit silly.
If u do not like the game then uninstall it. Next time do some research before u buy it. This is the first time I play like this kind of RPGs, and let me say " it is a hell of a game" So pls take ur trash somewhere else
He see them as typical MMO stuff to take busy players. The huge difference it's fun he doesn't quote is that sort of activities are mainly pure brainless repetitive activities in RPG, when in D:OS they require analysis, involvement and management. Very typical comparison is the crafting, sure you can just check a guide and try apply the recipes ie push toe design to MMO like, that's possible but that a wrong choice and just a player choice because D:OS crafting is much more than that.
This also shows the weak knowledge he has on old school RPG where management, adventure management, heavy inventory management was involving extra activities quite important for the global gameplay of RPG. Modern RPG stripped all and the problem is it results in series of combats-dialogs-toursim, and repeat.
"If you cut the level up and items search in original sin you cut the game by half."
No, you actually don't. You don't need to spend any time searching for items (why would you? You're fine with using anything you come across and making do with that) and the levelup is... like every single CRPG I have ever played. I've played this genre for many years - I've gotten both Ultima Underworlds as they came out, for example, and am familiar with the early Ultimas and Might and Magic games as well, not to mention the Goldbox games.
And really:
Roderick, your issue is that you are bad. Really bad at this game. But you don't want to admit this. So your only solution is to search for a reason why you're this bad. OH it must be the levels.
But they're not. MMOs give the levels a gating function, by reducing your damage/hit rate against enemies of a higher level and also increasing damage FROM higher level enemies.
Divinity: Original Sin does not, as far as I can tell, which means that you can always fight higher level enemies without a problem unless you're really bad at the game. Enemies five levels above you? You can handle them if you play smart. Which is as it should be.
The game doesn't actually feel less linear than oldschool CRPGs. All of them had areas with increasingly stronger enemies and let you figure out your way through it.
Some people, like you, need to be held by their hand and slavishly follow the level number, because you can't handle anything else. The rest of us doesn't care and just plays.
This game is, factually, nothing like a MMORPG. Turns out that "like a MMORPG" is not a good excuse to excuse one's badness.
It's just white knights in their crusader that are a plague and alas they don't see their crusader blind them, not those that just complain even if I consider many players are never happy, but that's another point.
For me its choices and consquences, the ability to feel like im part of the story and influence its progress, its the customization of the character.
For others its the statistics, the level ups, lots of numbers, lots items which may not really differ from one another.
The games i mentioned were very strong on the first example I just mentioned.
original sin is stronger in the level up and numbers department like so many mmorpgs.
If one of the sole purpose of slaying monsters in the game is to get loot and gain exprience then its grinding. if your purpose is to advance the story then its not grinding.
In many locations in the game you are grinding in order to become more powerful.
It can be theft, it can be simple sidequests and it can be monsters. if you are not doing something because its enjoyable and important to the story then its grinding.
Which is why the mmorpgs famous fetch quests are grinding.
Witcher 1 had the bounty quests grind. original sin has a game based around this mentality.
Face it, without slow paced game, leveling and items gathering. this game has a lot less content to show for it.