[MAJOR SPOILERS] Discussion on the ending

[Glithik]

I'll start this off by saying to anyone that hasn't finished or doesn't want elements of the game spoiled, to please leave now. I won't be redacting any information pertaining to the plot, the title of this discussion should let you know what will be spoiled. That being said, allow me to elaborate.

I've played through the game, read nearly if not all the notes and letters, all flashbacks (That I know of, I don't have the achievement for the flashbacks but I can't for the life of me find anymore that I could have missed). Despite all this information that I've gained for the ending, I can not for the life of me find another ending and I've read one post saying that there is only the one ending. If that is true, then I feel really let down by it.

I've revisited the game and loaded up multiple saves I've made throughout my play-through but I can not find any more new information that could unlock any other ending. Then, with the information provided, I'm frustrated that there IS no other ending. Reading through the letters in the Occult room on the top floor, it gave me the impression that maybe there was something to do with the stars, or night sky as the letters mention the Entity being influenced or in some way connected to them. Then, those same letters mention being shielded, in the mind, from the entity. I should also point out that it does briefly allude that there really is no purpose to keeping it at bay, and makes a easter-egg reference to the Dhaamer(Rough spelling of it) which is a reference to Scratches.

My issue is that, there is information provided to us that gives us, or me at least, the impression that we should be able to mentally protect ourselves from this entity when going to view it. Our character is smart, we know he is because he is able to find out about the tumor, using the methods that he does, without messing it up and killing or at least maiming himself. I feel like our character, after seeing the visions and learning what happened to the others in Group E, would be smart enough to not just go mental when seeing The Entity.

I went outside after re-reading those notes but its cloudy, so no way to view the starts to make any correlation there. I went back to Bertrands Cell and even took a photo to compare to the Seal on The Entity's door, but I could really make sense of it. They don't look much alike apart from the three lines going out. Then I just tried numerous and numerous Key combinations on the Seal, hoping that maybe one of them will give me something different. But no, I got the same ending, every time.

I wanted there to be something. Anything different. We're given so much information about the research into the Entity and, in my interpretation of what the notes say, gives me the impression that there is something to it and that there is something we can do mentally to not allow it to take us over. If there really is nothing else to be had at the end, then I don't think the game properly sets up the character for this suddenly depravity. He seems to keep his wits about him, or at least keeps them stable, for the entirety of the night. He doesn't seem to go mad, or start severely doubting what the patients say/see or what the doctors say/see but just seems overly worried about his own visions. Which, yes that is why we returned, there just isn't a progression in that. At least I don't see it. At most, when we learn he has the tumor, I can see him going mental there, sure. I'd be upset too. But it just doesn't stay with him, at least I don't think it does. It felt like he learned about it and just went "we'll regardless if I had a tumor or not, I'm gonna go in that tunnel." Because ultimately, if we had it or not, we we're going to go into that tunnel anyways. We would have still gotten the tumor if we didn't have it before and IF ANYTHING, we would have never returned if we didn't have it. So I just don't see why that is important to us, if we have it or not. From the moment we got in the car to go back to that place, we we're going to go into that tunnel or we would have never have gone there in the first place.

I just felt like there could have been something different at the end. I thought that maybe Lenny, wanting to protect the Entity as the tumor is mentioned to be some form of protection for the entity itself, wacks us on the head with the pickaxe and either throws us in the septic tank or furnace and then continues as if nothing happened. Completely blocks that memory out of his head because, well we've seen him do just that with everything pertaining to the basement. Lenny is also referenced by the others, so we know he is real and actually there too, in case him suddenly being in the boarded up basement gave the impression that he was just in our head. Unless that is a detail I have terribly missed, he is there and he is real.

Or in the end, maybe I'm just personally unsatisfied with the ending. I feel like I was led-on to figure out the true way to viewing the Entity, that I was so close to actually understanding it. Just to go mad anyways. Maybe thats the point? If it is though, then I don't think it really landed the way it was suppose to.

[Raccoon Boy]

Glithik eredeti hozzászólása:

Raccoon Boy eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't really know why Julia goes missing during the game, but I'm fairly certain Bruno goes missing because you stole the keys from him. You can hear them jingling through the rest of the game, and interacting with him after that point would necessitate him seeing and taking them back like he does if you steal them during the cafeteria sequence. So he just has to vanish from the game so that doesn't happen.

I understand the need for characters to be busy or not be around to talk to during certain segments, its just how the game handles it that is frustrating. It never gives us even a hint of where they go or what happens. Brunos journal is frustrating because it seems like he should keep writing in it by the hour, but he doesn't so it seems like a one time use hint and thats all. Julia, as far as I know, never mentions walking around or anything so its just confusing as to why she would leave, more so since she serves as a somewhat hint guide to the player if they want some generic info about topics. I read one post saying that it could play into the "its all just visions" aspect of the game but my issue with that is, the game never gives a single hint towards that thought. Other than lenny in the tunnel, there is never (in my understanding) a single hint towards it all being visions, so the payoff of the ending has nothing to really......payoff for. Then, just purely from a writing aspect. The ending as it is, is pretty much on par with "And it was all just a dream" which is just insanely lazy writing. From my personal experiences in college and talking to published authors, the whole "its all a dream" trope is one of the worst ways to end a story. (Its subjective but IMO, it is.)

Oh, no, yeah, I completely agree. The ending was disappointing to me for many reasons but I didn't feel like I had much to add to that that hadn't been discussed (though, as a side note that I don't think was mentioned, it felt like the last couple hours went by way too quickly, as if the game were rushing me towards its conclusion when it feels like they should've been longer).

But on the topic of the characters and how the game handles them, I agree that it's really frustrating the way it works. Bruno is the only one where it's for gameplay purposes--like I said, once you steal the keys, you couldn't talk to him without him noticing so the game is forced to remove him entirely. Miller is also very strange--he appears one time, for one hour, just so you can't discover you have a tumor too early, and then he's completely gone from the game after that. I wanted to ask him more questions about new topics I gained later because he has more insight into the inner workings of the building than anyone else but was never able to. And Julia is just strange. She has no reason to go anywhere ever, and yet even she tends to vanish into thin air for half the game. Given that you gain access to most of the building by the end and any other door is locked in a way that would make it inaccessible to them as well, it's very weird that there's no explanation for why any of them disappear.

I think the major issue, as touched on by Bruno, is that the four interview characters--in terms of their raw mechanics--are both hint systems and progression roadblocks. Julia stops you from going to the second floor (even though it's also locked???), Bruno stops you from grabbing the music box/keys/messing with the madman, Lenny consistently stops you from exploring chunks of the building the entire game, and Miller stops you from gaining the rat's sample and performing the biopsy too early. So these characters have to get removed once their roadblocking stops being necessary, yet the game doesn't seem to know where to put them after that and they have to disappear into the ether. But since they also serve as hints/explosition, it's incredibly frustrating for them to go missing as you play because the promise of more guidance is dangled in front of you via the interview system but the game literally refuses to allow you to engage with it.

[Glithik]

Raccoon Boy eredeti hozzászólása:

Glithik eredeti hozzászólása:

words

A lot more words.

Also what makes it a bit disappointing is that I know they can have good characters because I really liked Lenny. He felt like an actual person who we could connect with and empathize. With the others, they just feel so cookie cutter that its almost like I found myself talking to Lenny more because it felt like we we're the only two real, sane people (which is ironic in hindsight).

Also, after taking a screenshot of the reflection of ourselves in the car mirror. Then looking at the portraits of the doctors, I don't think we are any of them. Because MC has different color eyes than Hanwell and also appears much younger. The mole is on the opposite side of his nose in the mirror too. Unless it was just an oversight, there is no way an artist could paint a mole on the right side of someone face when its so clearly on his left side of his nose. I just can not convince myself that, that face is the same as Hanwell's. It looks more akin to the face of Ellis, which is why I referred to MC as Ellis earlier in this discussion. But the issue there is that, Ellis has a mole much closer to his eye than the mole we have below our eye.

Maybe its just not enough care into representing the visual side of MC but I can't be convinced we are any of them. Which is really upsetting that I no longer can be convinced that we are any of the doctors. We just don't represent any of them really and visual representation is clearly supposed to be the twist of the game and if I don't even know why its important that we see ourselves in the final screen, then the ending has no meaning. I really can't believe that is the ending we are rewarded with, IF we are actually none of them. At this point, I just want the writers explain what they wanted to get across for the ending. At this point, I can only think that the meaning of us looking into the mirror wasn't to reveal our identity but to show that we have somewhat yellow eyes, much like the Entity's eye before we woke up in the shed.

EDIT: There was an update that fixed the portrait in Hanwell's office. Also, I was thinking too hard about mirrors and confused myself.

[iuoiuboiuoiub]

SweepingsDemon eredeti hozzászólása:

iuoiuboiuoiub eredeti hozzászólása:

Did anyone else mention the idea that YOU are hanwell? Is there any reason to doubt that

Hanwell went missing as far as all documents are concerned. You have no memory but are infected with the tumor. And you seem to be the most capable person to interact with the entity

Also not sure what hanwell looks like but at end when you look in mirror - I though that’s revealing that you are him?

No, the player is very definitively hanwell.

Oh did I miss the memo where everyone already knew that? Lol

[Dredd]

Just making connections im seeing based on scratches, if what I understand is correct the entity is the same god the Dhalmaar trapped of immense power, thus rendering them suddenly violent & fighting in complete silence (hence gouging out Julias eyes bare handed). Also the woman cannibalizing her own child (Dhalmaar eat corpses) But how hypothetically would the god have been trapped there? The tribe in scratches is rumored to be many 10,000's years old, would Pangea have been when the entity arrived and thus was trapped when it split? Did the Dhalmaar trek there or originally live there and trap it there? In the end it seems very coincidental that the asylum would be built on top of the very location it so happened to be, and likewise, how did they ever figure to dig down there to discover it?

[SweepingsDemon]

iuoiuboiuoiub eredeti hozzászólása:

SweepingsDemon eredeti hozzászólása:

No, the player is very definitively hanwell.

Oh did I miss the memo where everyone already knew that? Lol

There was some debate right after launch but I think most people have concluded the player is Hanwell. The player can't be a member of Therapy Group E, and you see a portrait of both Hawthorne and Hanwell during the game. During the ending sequence the bit of the protagonist's face you see in the car shows a wart or protrusion in the brow area which is on his portrait.

Other circumstantial evidence suggests the player is Hanwell rather than Hawthorne, such as the presence of the tumor (indicating the player has been in the room, which we know Hanwell did during the seizure of the premises by the authorities). Rebecca and Lenny's presence in the player's visions and their recurring questions are also explained by the player being Hanwell and participating in the abuse.

[SweepingsDemon]

Dredd eredeti hozzászólása:

In the end it seems very coincidental that the asylum would be built on top of the very location it so happened to be, and likewise, how did they ever figure to dig down there to discover it?

This is addressed in the correspondence between Hanwell and Miller. It was just a coincidence. Hanwell found the tunnel system during the conversion to the unit system, which they were using the patients for due to financial issues. Miller is actually responsible for introducing Hanwell to the occult after the discovery when he asks for guidance.

[iuoiuboiuoiub]

SweepingsDemon eredeti hozzászólása:

iuoiuboiuoiub eredeti hozzászólása:

Oh did I miss the memo where everyone already knew that? Lol

There was some debate right after launch but I think most people have concluded the player is Hanwell. The player can't be a member of Therapy Group E, and you see a portrait of both Hawthorne and Hanwell during the game. During the ending sequence the bit of the protagonist's face you see in the car shows a wart or protrusion in the brow area which is on his portrait.

Other circumstantial evidence suggests the player is Hanwell rather than Hawthorne, such as the presence of the tumor (indicating the player has been in the room, which we know Hanwell did during the seizure of the premises by the authorities). Rebecca and Lenny's presence in the player's visions and their recurring questions are also explained by the player being Hanwell and participating in the abuse.

Why can’t you be a member of E? Just cuz there was never another name mentioned besides the npcs we know about?

[Judge Dredd]

We play as Walter Hanwell. In the latest patch, the developers added a missing mole under his eye to his portrait in the office.

[MuscleBroStolas]

Purchased this game on my main account. :P

The reveal of who the MC is seems.. odd. You hear him speak. He doesn't seem to speak the way he writes. When we hear him speak, he isn't nearly as formal.

Also, I could be wrong, but did Lenny ever clean Hanwell's office? How did he know where the key was? If so, I'm wondering why he didn't recognize the MC if they were Hanwell.

Also, is it possible that the person who wakes up in the shed *isn't* the main character? Though that theory would be destroyed, since Julia asks them if they've found what they're looking for.

Honestly, I just think it was a rushed ending that the Devs didn't think to comment on. Very sloppy.

[MuscleBroStolas]

Glithik eredeti hozzászólása:

I want to say also, I enjoyed playing the game. I unfortunately found out about Scratches after it was delisted from Steam and have always wanted to give it a go. This game has been a great scratch for that itch. I enjoyed the story overall and really enjoyed finding more details out. Its just that the ending doesn't really serve a good ending point to the story, but its just there to end the game and our adventure. Still though, I enjoyed my experience with it.

Why don't you get it from Archive or something?

[Glithik]

Judge Dredd eredeti hozzászólása:

We play as Walter Hanwell. In the latest patch, the developers added a missing mole under his eye to his portrait in the office.

Oh okay, thank god for that. For a moment I thought I was really about to lose it about this whole ending discussion. Then really the only difference is MC's eyes. Hanwell's in the portrait are dull, almost like a gray or light blue. MC's in the car mirror are yellow, which is the Entity's eye color so I presume then that we are just possessed. Which, I mean I guess thats an option for an ending. I wouldn't really call it a good or worthwhile ending though. Also, they forgot a character feature that could wreck the entire purpose of the ending for 15 years?

[Glithik]

MuscleBroStolas eredeti hozzászólása:

Also, I could be wrong, but did Lenny ever clean Hanwell's office? How did he know where the key was? If so, I'm wondering why he didn't recognize the MC if they were Hanwell.


Honestly, I just think it was a rushed ending that the Devs didn't think to comment on. Very sloppy.

Julia mentions that she sees Lenny walk in and out of the admin offices. I can't remember when or what topic you specifically have to ask her to get that dialog, but I remember knowing that its a given detail to explain why Lenny would have the key.

Which also adds to one of my discussion posts before, why can't Lenny remember us. He of all people should 100000% know Hanwell and its weird to me that he doesn't outright know us. I know the game tries to give "it was a long time ago, I can't remember that well" but lenny is able to recall so much of the past, he should 100% be able to remember Hanwell, more so after being in his Office and see his massive portrait, which he can always go and look at up until he gives us the key. It all just seems......lazy.

Also, I do (very very recently) have a copy of Scratches on steam. I just never really got around to playing it from Archive or elsewhere because tbh, I'm just lazy.

[AppleShy]

Glithik eredeti hozzászólása:

Which also adds to one of my discussion posts before, why can't Lenny remember us. He of all people should 100000% know Hanwell and its weird to me that he doesn't outright know us. I know the game tries to give "it was a long time ago, I can't remember that well" but lenny is able to recall so much of the past, he should 100% be able to remember Hanwell, more so after being in his Office and see his massive portrait, which he can always go and look at up until he gives us the key. It all just seems......lazy.

Lenny didn't have the key to the Director's office, though, he gave us the key to Hawthorne's office which is where we were able to get a key to the Director's office, but Lenny never had access to it directly.
I don't think it's such a given that Lenny would have met Hanwell since those circumstances you've mentioned aren't actually the case, you got it mixed up. The admin offices are on a separate floor than Hanwell's office, even.

Adding on to this, even if he had seen Hanwell before, one of the documents recounting the history of the Institute mentions that after its shutdown, Hanwell had turned himself in to the police and he had a really disheveled look and was barely recognizable from his previous "proper" appearance (From what little we can see of him in the ending, the hair does look quite different from the portraits) and I wouldn't expect him to remember a detail such as the mole.

So yeah, this is a particular point that I don't really think is that unreasonable, we don't have confirmation of whether or not Lenny had met Hanwell personally, and even if he did, there would be reasons for why he couldn't remember.

[Lucathegreat]

AppleShy eredeti hozzászólása:

So yeah, this is a particular point that I don't really think is that unreasonable, we don't have confirmation of whether or not Lenny had met Hanwell personally, and even if he did, there would be reasons for why he couldn't remember.

If you ask Lenny about Hanwell, he says there were many people back then, and no one introduced Hanwell to him, so he had no idea how he looked like.

[Glithik]

Lucathegreat eredeti hozzászólása:

AppleShy eredeti hozzászólása:

So yeah, this is a particular point that I don't really think is that unreasonable, we don't have confirmation of whether or not Lenny had met Hanwell personally, and even if he did, there would be reasons for why he couldn't remember.

If you ask Lenny about Hanwell, he says there were many people back then, and no one introduced Hanwell to him, so he had no idea how he looked like.

ahh okay. I think I just have an issue visualizing the scale of the Asylum. It didn't really feel as large as it really is. I think I sub-conscientiously start thinking that the asylum was a smaller, more inter woven society where everyone recognized everybody.

But he goes into the admin offices sometimes, right? He isn't able to recognize us as the dude in the huge portrait with his name under it? idk, maybe I shouldn't spend so much dedication to the story, I'm just really wanted something more interesting to be the actual ending.