Axes v. Hammers

[omnibalsamic]

I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to comment from experience on the value of axes vs. hammers in-game; particularly the one-handed variety, paired with a shield. I'm building my first Block-based fighter, and need advice. General feelings on the two weapon types?

More specifically, the character I'm trying to build is a Praetor, split somewhat between combat and civil skills, with the eventual goals of:

1. Bringing as much glory and efficacy to House Daratan as possible.
2. Venturing in to the Abyss, activating the ancient machines to destroy Maadoran, and gaining the Mindshield power.

From what I've gathered by my own testing and some queries here, that second goal means my stat options are... fairly restricted: I've landed on the following.

STR 7
DEX 7
CON 7
PER 8
INT 7
CHA 4

STR & CON to survive the Abyss, PER & INT to be able to actually get through it without Feng's pointers, and as high a DEX as possible to round it out, because DEX remains the king of combat as far as I've been able to tell.

The other wrinkle is that I can't be pure combat, since I'm hoping to delve in to the Abyss and successfully operate the blue steel smelter for Lord Antidas. This necessitates a Lore of 4 by the end of my time in Teron. I'd also like to have some chops in Etiquette, both for the early praetorian armor and for role play reasons. I'm also flirting with a secondary focus in Crafting, but I'm very curious to hear from others whether they've found it to be more or less effective than placing a similar number of skill points directly into combat and using store bought gear.

So given these stats... anyone have any opinions as to whether Axes or Hammers would be more useful for a Block fighter with these parameters? Axes' savage blow capability seems v. useful for someone who can't afford to invest in CS. But the Hammer passive's just as useful, potentially, if a little more consistent and less flashy than the axes' spikes in damage. So, any thoughts?

[Elhoim]

I would go with hammers. Eager to hear the story on how this character does! =)

[horrible statue]

I agree with Elhoim. I had a very rewarding play as a merchant who used hammers. He was an angry merchant and he hammered many a man.. men.. man*. Once I hit the second town I started sacrifiicing some of my characters civic skills such as trading, alchemy, persuasion, and etiquette for well.... ... hammers... He was an angry merchant. I look forward to going further with my merchant... And seeing just how far my merchant's obse... I mean focus with hammers will take him in the world.

[Motorola]

Axes do % more damage based on your proficiency, plus chances to land savage blows, plus the Skeggox(iron even better) is perfect to pair with a cavalry shield.
This mean if you have Axes level 4, you land 20% more damage and 20% savage blow, when it happen, you can deal up to 20+ damage even on armored enemies, with just one regular strike, with power strikes i even hit for 29 damages (that mean if you poison your weapon, the enemy is basically dead without the need to spend AP on him) , basically im using the build of a Saxon Huskarl , Skeggox + Round Shield :D , i also had LoricaMusculata and iron Auxiliary Helmet (ugly but effective).

[omnibalsamic]

Ranks in Axes actually increase your base damage, in addition to THC and the % chance to land Savage Blows? I was not aware of this. Could anyone confirm? And is it true for any other weapon types?

Elhoim, do you think you could speak a bit as to why you'd prefer hammers to axes for this character? I'd also love to hear any opinions you might have as to the relative value of Crafting vs. spending those points directly in combat skills. Ignoring the fact, of course, that Crafting has other somewhat less tangible benefits -- access to the mysterious Jellyfish Artifact, among what I'm sure must be others. This character being one I intend to have explore forgotten and mysterious places, the combination of Crafting and Lore definitely is appealing.

[omnibalsamic]

Well, Elhoim, since you'd asked about my progress...

Bertram, my little Praetor, started out doing fairly well: stats are as I've noted above, starting skills were Hammer 3 / Block 4, Etiquette 2 / Crafting 3 / Lore 3. I used my first couple of skill point rewards to bring Hammer up to 4, which is not really an option when it comes to actually fighting through the first Praetor quest; those Aurelian legionaries are no frigging joke. F'real. Had to reload once, but made it through the second time -- winning strategy involved backing out of the middle of the fracas and letting my two men-at-arms do most of the work.

After that, I raised my Etiquette to 3, after which a little ransacking of Feng's old digs and some tutelage under Master Cassius brought my Lore and Crafting, respectively, up to 4. After that it was just a matter of clearing out a great deal of Teron's unwholesome rabble -- street toughs, squatters, Miliiades, the Ordu's crew -- and using my notably high PER score to effectively scout out the Bandit Camp for Dellar. This brought me to 5 in Hammers, Block, and Crafting.

At which point I made myself some Hardened Iron Lamellar Ordu and a Hardened Masterwork Iron Mallet, and set off to assail the Aurelian Outpost. Though not before spiking their booze with rat poison, of course. Which met with... not the greatest results. I managed a number of times to whittle their forces down to either just the Captain and the Crossbowman, or the Captain and the Spearman (who doesn't manage to be much more than a nuisance; he only ever penetrates my DR on pretty rate critical strikes, but he's tough to hit), but holy hell is that Captain dangerous. Just... argh. He even dodges pretty proficiently, despite his heavy armor.

At any rate, I think I'll be starting from scratch and see if Axes can get me over that last hump; the Hammer passive honestly didn't strike me as amazing. Savage Blow combined with the Skeggox's natural DR rating may be what puts that final nail in the coffin. We'll see!

[Vince]

Originally posted by Darkpockets:

Ranks in Axes actually increase your base damage, in addition to THC and the % chance to land Savage Blows? I was not aware of this. Could anyone confirm? And is it true for any other weapon types?

No. Each weapon skill rank increases your THC (to-hit chance) by 10 and your passive effect (a chance to trigger a special ability) with the weapon.

[Elhoim]

Originally posted by Darkpockets:

Elhoim, do you think you could speak a bit as to why you'd prefer hammers to axes for this character?

It was mostly a cosmetic thing, an axe is too barbaric for a praetor :)

In any case, they are fairly balanced, plus the praetor questline in general pits you against heavily armored opponents, so that hammer passive has a good chance to shine. And also has the knockdown attack which can be useful (though as a block character you have bash).

Originally posted by Darkpockets:

I'd also love to hear any opinions you might have as to the relative value of Crafting vs. spending those points directly in combat skills. Ignoring the fact, of course, that Crafting has other somewhat less tangible benefits -- access to the mysterious Jellyfish Artifact, among what I'm sure must be others. This character being one I intend to have explore forgotten and mysterious places, the combination of Crafting and Lore definitely is appealing.

I think you can level it up to 4 to get some nicely crafted iron hammer, or even 5 to get two techniques (but it's a big jump in SP there). The nice thing about crafting is the ability to customize the weapons to your needs and get better armors, especially when we'll add the THC increasing techniques.

In any case, your praetor would get a good access to an iron praetorian armor if you fight Sohrab's envoy, which will suit you perfectly, and make your combat life much easier :)

[omnibalsamic]

Originally posted by Elhoim:

It was mostly a cosmetic thing, an axe is too barbaric for a praetor :)

Yeah, I'm actually quite sympathetic to that reasoning. Nothing says "I Am Better Than You" more clearly than a Rod of Lordly Might. Point taken. That said, the Mallet actually doesn't strike me as exceptionally Praetor-ish from an aesthetic perspective, and it's the only Hammer with any synergy for a Blocking character; the Spiked Club and Marculus both boost your counter-attack chance, and the two-handed hammers are, well, two-handed. Any chance we'll see the addition of another variety of hammer, eventually? A flanged mace, perhaps, or something based on one of the Persian bludgeons?

Originally posted by Elhoim:

I think you can level it up to 4 to get some nicely crafted iron hammer, or even 5 to get two techniques (but it's a big jump in SP there). The nice thing about crafting is the ability to customize the weapons to your needs and get better armors, especially when we'll add the THC increasing techniques.

Yeah, I think boosting my Crafting to 5 to take on the Aurelians might have been overkill; I'll give it a try with those points diverted to Critical Strike and see what happens. The extra damage on my mallet from Crafting 5 is fairly negligible in this case, and the one extra DR on my armor is... nice, but clearly wasn't keeping me alive at the end of the day.

Oh, speaking of armor: are there eventually any enhancements through Crafting apart from Hardened and Masterwork, for armor? Because as a Blocker, Masterwork actually appears to be... completely useless. I don't care about reducing the penalty to my Dodge or Sneak scores, after all.

Originally posted by Elhoim:

In any case, your praetor would get a good access to an iron praetorian armor if you fight Sohrab's envoy, which will suit you perfectly, and make your combat life much easier :)

Believe me, I know. I gleefully looted it from his corpse after my NPC support bravely slaughtered him. Erm, I mean... after I bravely led my subordinates to victory. Ahem. Yeah. That's the ticket.

Originally posted by Vince:

No. Each weapon skill rank increases your THC (to-hit chance) by 10 and your passive effect (a chance to trigger a special ability) with the weapon.

Thanks, Vince. I was reasonably sure that was the case. Good to have it confirmed.

On the subject of the Passives, what is the actual % chance for hammers' ability to trigger on a given attack and reduce enemy DR to the stated amount?

[omnibalsamic]

So, for anyone playing along at home, I did manage to take the Outpost successfully with my praetor, with just a couple tweaks to the original build. Instead of STR7/DEX7, I ended up working with STR8/DEX6, and definitely noticed a change for the better in terms of how effective I was with my shield. And I seemed marginally tougher in from being decked out in Imperial Armor.

(Not to mention how much more rad the Imperial plate looks than Ordu lamellar. Nothing against the Ordu -- some of my best friends are Ordu -- but that bulky lamellar doesn't go well with a shield and a cloak. Not one bit.)

So with those stats and Hammer 5 / Block 5 / Critical Strike 3 (instrumental in taking out the axman before the battle starts), I was actually able to take the outpost after just two reloads. I used Aemolas' Marculus to do it, which made me feel like a bit of a ♥♥♥♥ for murdering his family, and a bit bummed due to the Marculus' innate bonus to counter-attack chance being wasted on me, but it was hard to argue with the low AP cost, armor penetration, and THC bonus. Still, I do see myself moving to a crafted Mallet eventually. Or something else, if the game ends up ever adding new weapon types...

Plus, with a v. minor investment in Lockpick and some investigation into Feng's belongings, I even got the mine's chest open and had the smelter spinning to life. I'm liking this praetor a whole hell of a lot; he's a bit of a bastard, but he sure gets results.

Now I just need to figure out whether there's a way for me actually to take on Carrinas in a fight, or alternately if i even have the SP available to boost the social skills necessary to con him. I don't suppose anyone knows off the top of their head what the Disguise/Etiquette check requires... for a character with 4 Charisma?

I'm also still curious about the abilities one is able to add to heavy armory by Crafting. The only three I'm personally aware of are Hardened, Lightened, and Masterwork. My character not getting any use from the "improvements" Masterwork, nor having any more potential AP to put to use by Lightening a suit of imperial armor, it seems that only one of my two possible armor slots will be helpful to me. Anybody who's gotten further along with a Craft/Block character care to comment?

[Elhoim]

On the subject of the Passives, what is the actual % chance for hammers' ability to trigger on a given attack and reduce enemy DR to the stated amount?

100%, every hit. Increasing the hammer's level increases the amount of DR that gets ignored.

[omnibalsamic]

Huh. What does the Mallet's passive ability actually do, then? I believe the text says something like "20% chance to activate weapon passive," or whatever the wording there usually is. I... don't think I've noticed it decreasing enemy DR by another 20%, unless I'm crazy.