Divine Spear (SPOILERS)

[Axa]

Had a fight with Balzaar in Ganezzar and turned him, the city & me to ash with the Divine Spear.

Which begs the question: why can't I do the same with Agathoth & the temple? I find the temple, point the spear, mushroom-cloud it & have a drink at the nearest tavern. Or open the sarcophagus, point the spear, yell "Banzai/Allahu Akbar/Say hello to my lil' friend" and pull the trigger.

[Vince]

You can use it against Balzaar because it's a text-based fight and it's a last resort weapon (you use it when you're dead anyway). None of it applies to the temple (i.e. to let you use would be a cheap way out at best).

[Axa]

Bah. My options as a talker at the temple are to open the sarcophagus and let some roided up hydralisk enslave mankind or leave it there for some other fool to find and open later.

I'd rather blow my character & Agathoth sky high. Wanna destroy the temple but don't have lore/crafting? The Divine Spear is the answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q

[Vince]

So your talker would rather sacrifice himself for the good of mankind than serve a 'god'?

Anyway, I don't mind adding another option but I don't like cheap ways out. Don't want to kneel before a god? Use the missile.

For those who like blowing things up there's a reactor that can be overloaded but it takes skills, as it should. If you're a pure talker with no other skills then maybe you should be out of options. Either serve the god or walk away. No?

[Axa]

Originally posted by Vince:

So your talker would rather sacrifice himself for the good of mankind than serve a 'god'?

No. My character would convince someone else to sacrifice himself for the good of mankind. "That's right, my child. Recite the prayer, push the button and you shall ascend to paradise and leave this world of pain and suffering behind."

Or go straight to Paullus and tell him everything. He'd give the temple the Al-Akia treatment.
Currently, when Paullus asks me if we can kill it I'm forced to answer no - with a nuke in my backpack. Or pay sappers to blow up the entrance to Hellgate and mercenaries/raiders to slaughter the Dead River village. Anything.

He sure as hell wouldn't leave something that could mess up his scheming to chance. Azra found the temple, he did. Someone else will find it eventually and open the sarcophagus.

Originally posted by Vince:

Anyway, I don't mind adding another option but I don't like cheap ways out.

You consider dying and wasting all your time gaining wealth and power - manipulating, convincing and backstabbing a cheap way out? Plenty of people would rather die than lose power. And being nothing more than a meat puppet to carry out orders for a incarnation of a space jellyfish isn't much of an existence.

[Vince]

Originally posted by Axa:

Azra found the temple, he did. Someone else will find it eventually and open the sarcophagus.

Naturally. Our artist is working on an ending slide showing someone else discovering it.

Originally posted by Vince:

You consider dying and wasting all your time gaining wealth and power - manipulating, convincing and backstabbing a cheap way out?

In a game when you're at the end? Yes. You're about to lose all that wealth and power anyway because the game's about to end, so sacrifice doesn't have as much meaning.

Anyway, I see your point of view that a talker should be given a way to deal with the threat and we'll consider it.

[TCPippin]

I think it was Ron Gilbert who said that if you give player something sharp, he'll try to cut up everyone and everything, so you have to plan for it. And nuke is so much more attractive than any knife in any adventure game! So ideally, there should be an option to use it against any sufficiently important target, or a clear reason as to why it's impossible.
(I would love to send it through The Arch, Stargate-style)

[ワイバーン の とし]

I kinda want to like chop off 'god's' head to show it off and go have a party with Neleos and Gaelius about it. Im still sad there is no Neleos or Coltan after AG3. Its the most based guild and pretty much the only one i feel welcome in. AG and HA. Only reasonable people. Everyone else is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥ i want dead. Especially Meru and every single person inside Ganezaar. Inquisitor is traitor. The 'Magus' is a prick. Meru is the amalgomation of a politician and church high end representative - people who live off of lies, deceit and misery of others. How can anyone side with him is beyond me. Galbrio or w/e his name is also a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Merchants always were ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Also how come i cant stab Feng when: Magus is dead, Inquisitor is dead, Meru is dead. They are all gone from palace. Feng still sits there and ♥♥♥♥ talks. ♥♥♥♥♥ i just wiped out everyone in power near you. And i cant kill him? I cant make him suffer and beg for mercy as i gradually remove bits and pieces of his body away from him, watching how he shrivels and cries in agony from the poison i injected him with? Come on now.

[ワイバーン の とし]

Originally posted by Eel:

I think it was Ron Gilbert who said that if you give player something sharp, he'll try to cut up everyone and everything, so you have to plan for it. And nuke is so much more attractive than any knife in any adventure game! So ideally, there should be an option to use it against any sufficiently important target, or a clear reason as to why it's impossible.
(I would love to send it through The Arch, Stargate-style)

I dunno dude, casually killing 'god' with a kitchen knife sounds hilarious to me.

Just imagine it. Your specially crafted 'Rusty as ♥♥♥♥ and dull' kitchen knife doing 1-2 dmg but removing stats like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and applying bleed.

[LordBlade]

Super necro post, but I came across this thread while looking up info on what I can do with the spear.

Originally posted by Vince:

If you're a pure talker with no other skills then maybe you should be out of options. Either serve the god or walk away. No?

I point you to Arcanum, where a talky character can literally talk the final boss to death. This is one of the reasons that Arcanum is one of the best RPG's ever, because no matter your character type, there's always a solution. You don't get screwed just because you're a talky character.

Originally posted by Vince:

Originally posted by Vince:

You consider dying and wasting all your time gaining wealth and power - manipulating, convincing and backstabbing a cheap way out?

In a game when you're at the end? Yes. You're about to lose all that wealth and power anyway because the game's about to end, so sacrifice doesn't have as much meaning.

But you're seeing the end of the game as the end of the character, which to most players who get attached to their characters, it isn't. If we're playing through, building up our character, making allies and enemies, gaining power, rank, etc... that means something. Just because the game ends, doesn't mean that power didn't mean anything, it means we know we leave the game (and our character) set up for a good life, with an ending we can enjoy. Having the option of sacrificing all of that isn't a "cheap win". Yes, it's the end of the game, but your character nuking himself and the big bad is a glorious way to go out. It means we're willing to sacrifice all we've accomplished for the greater good (or maybe because we're just that petty that we want to take him with us). But it's still a hard choice, as most players would want to see their characters make it out of the final battle. The martyr ending usually isn't the one we'd want, but maybe that's the type of character we've been playing?

Simply put, more options is always going to be better.

[Vince]

Originally posted by LordBlade:

Originally posted by Vince:

If you're a pure talker with no other skills then maybe you should be out of options. Either serve the god or walk away. No?

I point you to Arcanum, where a talky character can literally talk the final boss to death. This is one of the reasons that Arcanum is one of the best RPG's ever, because no matter your character type, there's always a solution. You don't get screwed just because you're a talky character.

Arcanum is indeed one of the best RPGs but I've never liked that option in the game. Kerghan is a powerful necromancer who dedicated his whole life to his art (or thew it away, depends on how you see it). When he's a step away from his goal, you should NOT be able to convince him that he was wrong all along. It just doesn't make sense.

It works in Fallout 1 but not in Arcanum.

As for AoD, you aren't screwed (for a talker serving the god is often the best outcome) but you can't achieve any outcome you wish and you can't solve every problem by talking (just like you can't solve every problem by fighting).

But you're seeing the end of the game as the end of the character, which to most players who get attached to their characters, it isn't. If we're playing through, building up our character, making allies and enemies, gaining power, rank, etc... that means something. Just because the game ends, doesn't mean that power didn't mean anything, it means we know we leave the game (and our character) set up for a good life, with an ending we can enjoy. Having the option of sacrificing all of that isn't a "cheap win". Yes, it's the end of the game, but your character nuking himself and the big bad is a glorious way to go out. It means we're willing to sacrifice all we've accomplished for the greater good (or maybe because we're just that petty that we want to take him with us). But it's still a hard choice, as most players would want to see their characters make it out of the final battle. The martyr ending usually isn't the one we'd want, but maybe that's the type of character we've been playing?

These events don't happen by default. You have to deal with Balzaar only if you perform the ritual. You have to deal with Agathoth only if you wake him up. So if you did both of these things, you're out of options.

[MW2014]

I 100% support Vince on this.

Too many games are trying to make every player build equal and able to achieve everything.

One of the main reasons I like AoD so much is that you don't know consequences of your actions, of your character development etc. You will simply fail a lot of checks in various playthroughs and not be able to access a lot of content in a given playthrough. THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT the AoD!!!!

It's perfectly reasonable that a dumb muscle sword wielder would not be able to operate a fusion reactor, or a merchant talker won't be able to defeat an Ordu warrior (or an Imperial Legionaire).

In a similar fashion you should not be able to convince a "god" to change his views. You have other options to deal with Agathoth:

1. Kill him during a fight
2. Overpower a fusion reactor thus creating a huge explosion
3. Do not wake Agathoth at all
4. Bring a lord to him.

Did I forget anything more?

Anyway, I really like not being able to do everything in a given playthrough. AoD is one of the most REPLAYABLE game ever, thanks to its design philosophy.

I really hope the Colony Ship RPG will be based upon similar principles.

[Vince]

Originally posted by MW2014:

Anyway, I really like not being able to do everything in a given playthrough. AoD is one of the most REPLAYABLE game ever, thanks to its design philosophy.

I really hope the Colony Ship RPG will be based upon similar principles.

Absolutely.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7217.0.html
^ our design philosophy

[MW2014]

Mystery and difference is what motivates people to replay games. AoD is awesome in this regard.

I was not able to reach the bottom of the Abyss during first few of my playthroughs. I was not able to reach Mountain Monastery in my first playthrough. It created an enormous desire to explore those mysterious, long forgotten places.

I was extremely intrigued what hides behind huge doors at the Old Facility. But it required another build. :)

The mysterious tower at Zamedi. I wanted to know what was inside this place but was not able to enter it in my first playthrough.


I didn't even know that Caer Tor exist when I first played your game. I didn't expect heroic defense of Harran's Pass against an Ordu Horde (I really like that you based them on Mongols with a Tengri based mythology). .

The Arch plotline was awesome. While it was small in scope it really required some detailed exploration of the game world to be able to communicate with our otherworldly 'friends'. :)

Al Akia is also a location you can only visit in some specific playthroughs (and even then it is not compulsory so you can miss it).


That's what makes each playthrough VERY DIFFERENT from other ones. And that is a true REPLAYABILITY.

[LordBlade]

I like Roguelikes, because they're full of replayability. They have the same basic content every game, but each run plays out differently based on randomness and your choices. Which makes them awesome.

I like AoD, because it does have a similar feel in that the choices I make for my character determine the path I'll be able to take. And I have no problem with areas only being available to certain character builds and all. It's just that I feel that games shouldn't limit the end of a game to specific builds. It gives me the same feeling as they did with the Mass Effect series, where they give you games where choice and consequence are supposed to be super important... until you get to the end where your choices are irrelevant and pointless.

Games where only certain builds are viable for the end game give me that same feeling. I know it's supposed to give you replayability, but it usually just makes me feel like I played the game wrong and should have built my character a certain way just to get the proper ending options.

[MW2014]

LordBlade. I'd say that the end game is no different than the rest of the game. You should not be able to reach every ending with a given build.

Different endings should require different playthroughs with different builds, decisions etc.