Sandy Petersen's maps suck

[AortaPlatinum]

Am I allowed to say that or is it a crime against boomer shooters? His stuff in DOOM I is fine, not as good as the maps of the other guys, but his work in DOOM II is just '♥♥♥♥ off'
These way too long, meandering, teleporter-packed stages with required means of progression hidden in secrets you wouldn't find if you didn't spend 10 minutes combing the map. Tricks and Traps is infamous, but Refueling Station in II is abysmal, I spent over 20 minutes in that stage, half of which was after I killed all but two demons, just combing the area for that damn blue key card.

[SuperFly]

All the DOOM2 maps are shockingly lackluster, in comparison to the first game.
I think it was very much from a environment of "get it done", rather than "create something".

[LiL blade]

i have the opposite opinion as i prefer all of doom 2's maps over the first game

Originally posted by SuperFly:

All the DOOM2 maps are shockingly lackluster, in comparison to the first game.
I think it was very much from a environment of "get it done", rather than "create something".

what makes doom 2's maps lackluster in comparison to the first in your opinion?

[SuperFly]

Originally posted by 2-D blade:

i have the opposite opinion as i prefer all of doom 2's maps over the first game

Originally posted by SuperFly:

All the DOOM2 maps are shockingly lackluster, in comparison to the first game.
I think it was very much from a environment of "get it done", rather than "create something".

what makes doom 2's maps lackluster in comparison to the first in your opinion?

They became too abstract.
In DOOM, you were at least on two distinct space stations, and then Hell.
With a title like 'Hell on Earth', there were very few levels that resembled places you could be. There are even gimmick maps and the like.
I enjoyed FinalDOOM's 'Evilution' much more, for the opposite reasons.

[ming84]

Sandy's problem is that his pathways don't always lead to a progression item (key, switch etc.). This wastes the players time and frustrates them. Romero and McGee seemed to understand this, hence why their levels are so much better.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by AortaPlatinum:

Am I allowed to say that

A lot of old-school Doom players have said it already. Many of Doom II's maps are gimmicky.

[LMA]

Originally posted by SuperFly:

Originally posted by 2-D blade:

i have the opposite opinion as i prefer all of doom 2's maps over the first game


what makes doom 2's maps lackluster in comparison to the first in your opinion?

They became too abstract.
In DOOM, you were at least on two distinct space stations, and then Hell.
With a title like 'Hell on Earth', there were very few levels that resembled places you could be. There are even gimmick maps and the like.
I enjoyed FinalDOOM's 'Evilution' much more, for the opposite reasons.

Most of Sandy's levels in DOOM were touch-ups of maps made by Tom Hall.

[Phoenix]

It's also why Episode 4 of Quake is so disjointed compared to Episodes 1-3. They put all of Sandy's maps there since they didn't really fit anywhere else and they didn't know what else to do with them. Of course, there was also the issue of one Id employee (presumably Willits) misdirecting Sandy in the mapping department as well...

[ming84]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

It's also why Episode 4 of Quake is so disjointed compared to Episodes 1-3. They put all of Sandy's maps there since they didn't really fit anywhere else and they didn't know what else to do with them. Of course, there was also the issue of one Id employee (presumably Willits) misdirecting Sandy in the mapping department as well...

I think he was screwing with American Mcgee, not sandy. Sandy is 16 years older than Wilits and would have told him to piss off lol.

[SuperFly]

Sandy Petersen gives some excellent insight into his DOOM map-creation & process in a series of sit-downs, that can be found here:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/103788-sandy-petersen-interview-i-had-never-noticed-before/

[LiL blade]

Originally posted by ming84:

Originally posted by Phoenix:

It's also why Episode 4 of Quake is so disjointed compared to Episodes 1-3. They put all of Sandy's maps there since they didn't really fit anywhere else and they didn't know what else to do with them. Of course, there was also the issue of one Id employee (presumably Willits) misdirecting Sandy in the mapping department as well...

I think he was screwing with American Mcgee, not sandy. Sandy is 16 years older than Wilits and would have told him to piss off lol.

yeah sandy said willits was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with mcgee during the development of Q2 i beilieve.

[Acid Crab ttv]

I just played through all 3 classic dooms this week, and Doom two pretty early had a stage where you fight a tough boss and they let you fall into a one tile line of lava with no way back up and I literally said out loud "Doom 1 wouldn't do this to me" lol

[AColostomyBagWithChilliSauceInIt]

All this Sandy Petersen hate is becoming tiresome. It's a great attempt at being more accepted within the Doom community, but ultimately makes you come across as ignorant. Stick to more streamlined FPS titles, please.

[ming84]

Originally posted by Labtec Spookers:

All this Sandy Petersen hate is becoming tiresome. It's a great attempt at being more accepted within the Doom community, but ultimately makes you come across as ignorant. Stick to more streamlined FPS titles, please.

Or...he wasn't a great level designer lol.

[SuperFly]

Originally posted by ming84:

Originally posted by Labtec Spookers:

All this Sandy Petersen hate is becoming tiresome. It's a great attempt at being more accepted within the Doom community, but ultimately makes you come across as ignorant. Stick to more streamlined FPS titles, please.

Or...he wasn't a great level designer lol.

Thing is, he was -- and is a legendary game designer in his own right.
Creatively, he has tons more acumen & is lauded more than Romero & Carmack combined.

[ming84]

Originally posted by SuperFly:

Originally posted by ming84:

Or...he wasn't a great level designer lol.

Thing is, he was -- and is a legendary game designer in his own right.
Creatively, he has tons more acumen & is lauded more than Romero & Carmack combined.

Carmack didn't design levels...