How is ROTK 8?

[First Mate]

Never played any of the 14 or so games, how good is 8 compared to the others? Will the remake potentially make it the best? I am hoping this is a good entry point.

[babobaka]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

I agree that complexity doesn't always make the game better. But I still think UI in ROTK10 adds problem to complexity much more than in ROTK13

If you think that's the case, that's valid. However, if you think UI complexity of X is worse than 13, then let's just agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

So I still understand what the problem with that? If game balanced using 2 instead of 5 it still makes game balanced. Immersive? Like 5 people will make harvest to come faster than 2?

ROTK is a game about collecting officers, and to make your collection of officers useless by adding unnecessary restriction is awful gameplay design in my opinion. I do not think it's balanced gameplay when you have bunch of officers that cannot be utilized due to unnecessary restriction.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

I can see how it tedious, but still don't understand what do you mean by "maximize your gameplay". Sending letters could be good in some cases, but its not needed in any case and you would just use it as some rare cases.

By not utilizing the letters, you are losing out possible tiny advantage of raising your relationship, which makes it annoying feature to do, but also not doing it also leaves bad taste in your mouth because you could've done it for tiny advantage. If you are putting "not needed" category, so many things can be considered "not needed", but since they exists they become part of the gameplay loop. I mean after all, you can just sit in one city and let the time go by to complete the game.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Never played RoP but from what I've seen there is no strategy options there. Is there any benefits of how close officers in the unit that give bonuses? What about ROTK10?

Yes the game has many skills to use during combat, and each officer can have unique skills. The menu is hidden and it pops open with button command. ROTK10 combat is your typical turn based combat with average strategies. It would've been ok if AI wasn't busted, and had game breaking units. Then again, I kind of enjoyed that game breaking unit portion, so it had it's moments. As a turn based combat, it was shallow, but not paper thin like ROTK13

Originally posted by Hanzo:

As I said you actually can. As a War Minister you would be always ask to provide input for different things, be it invasion plan or fate of the prisoner. Not sure what so "dynamic" about it

Again, ROTK8, you can advise just about every move your ruler makes. As an advisor, you are practically playing as a ruler, except you don't always get your way, which makes it interesting and playing the role of advisor feels quite different from any other position. It is also interesting to give bad advice if you were already in deals with enemy nation. The affect your decision have in counsel is much greater in ROTK8, as that is the main portion of the game. You won't know it until you actually play ROTK8.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by babobaka:

By not utilizing the letters, you are losing out possible tiny advantage of raising your relationship, which makes it annoying feature to do, but also not doing it also leaves bad taste in your mouth because you could've done it for tiny advantage. If you are putting "not needed" category, so many things can be considered "not needed", but since they exists they become part of the gameplay loop. I mean after all, you can just sit in one city and let the time go by to complete the game.

Do you even know how letter system work?

Originally posted by babobaka:

Yes the game has many skills to use during combat, and each officer can have unique skills. The menu is hidden and it pops open with button command. ROTK10 combat is your typical turn based combat with average strategies. It would've been ok if AI wasn't busted, and had game breaking units. Then again, I kind of enjoyed that game breaking unit portion, so it had it's moments. As a turn based combat, it was shallow, but not paper thin like ROTK13

Wow, a person who say ROTK10 battle is "deep" think that ROTK13 is shallow. I would like to see how much you could do in ROTK10 in terms of tactics. Once again does game even have "Tactics" skill? But I guess we could disagree here as well as subjective part. I've never liked ROTK10 tactic (battle) mode so that's the reason I didn't play it much.

Originally posted by babobaka:

Again, ROTK8, you can advise just about every move your ruler makes. As an advisor, you are practically playing as a ruler, except you don't always get your way, which makes it interesting and playing the role of advisor feels quite different from any other position. It is also interesting to give bad advice if you were already in deals with enemy nation. The affect your decision have in counsel is much greater in ROTK8, as that is the main portion of the game. You won't know it until you actually play ROTK8.

Again in ROTK13 you could do pretty much the same

[babobaka]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Do you even know how letter system work?

Enough to know sending it is better than not sending it.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Wow, a person who say ROTK10 battle is "deep" think that ROTK13 is shallow. I would like to see how much you could do in ROTK10 in terms of tactics. Once again does game even have "Tactics" skill? But I guess we could disagree here as well as subjective part. I've never liked ROTK10 tactic (battle) mode so that's the reason I didn't play it much.

lol I called it "shallow" and it transformed into "deep". Way to strawman the argument. If you want to disprove it, it's your turn to prove why 13's combat is "deep"

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Again in ROTK13 you could do pretty much the same

Again you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by babobaka:

Enough to know sending it is better than not sending it.

So you don't. Sometimes sending letter could hurt you, but it's also one of edge situations, same with benefits. I guess we can leave it like that

Originally posted by babobaka:

lol I called it "shallow" and it transformed into "deep". Way to strawman the argument. If you want to disprove it, it's your turn to prove why 13's combat is "deep"

Yeah, that's why I put "deep" in commas. I've tried to say that it's "better" as you put "shallow" vs "paper thin". Hope you used commas for the very same purpose.
Here are things that make ROTK13 better than ROTK10 in my eyes:
1. Unit power depends on unit type and officer that form this unit. Taking in account the relationship between officers. Better relations - better performance
2. Tactics. You can user your INT stat not only for debates. So in the beginning of battle you could put different tactics on the points on the map. They depend on officers classes and depending on preference could change flow of battle or approach in general
3. Pincer attack (not sure if ROTK10 has it, but didn't see it). Affect your positioning
4. Different way to win a battle. You can destroy the camp or destroy all units
5. Officers have units preference, which also affects you planning
6. City fight have not only siege weapons, but weapons on castle walls
7. Now there are tactical points on the map that will reduce enemy morale when destroyed/captured.
8. I find morale system in ROTK13 being better than in ROTK10 (at least what I've seen)
9. Fire skills affected by the wind direction, what also affects positioning
You say "it's your turn to prove why 13's combat is "deep"" while you don't provide anything outside of vague answers, so I want to see your list as well.

Originally posted by babobaka:

Again you have no idea what you are talking about.

Same as you, I guess.

[babobaka]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Yeah, that's why I put "deep" in commas. I've tried to say that it's "better" as you put "shallow" vs "paper thin". Hope you used commas for the very same purpose.
Here are things that make ROTK13 better than ROTK10 in my eyes:
1. Unit power depends on unit type and officer that form this unit. Taking in account the relationship between officers. Better relations - better performance
2. Tactics. You can user your INT stat not only for debates. So in the beginning of battle you could put different tactics on the points on the map. They depend on officers classes and depending on preference could change flow of battle or approach in general
3. Pincer attack (not sure if ROTK10 has it, but didn't see it). Affect your positioning
4. Different way to win a battle. You can destroy the camp or destroy all units
5. Officers have units preference, which also affects you planning
6. City fight have not only siege weapons, but weapons on castle walls
7. Now there are tactical points on the map that will reduce enemy morale when destroyed/captured.
8. I find morale system in ROTK13 being better than in ROTK10 (at least what I've seen)
9. Fire skills affected by the wind direction, what also affects positioning
You say "it's your turn to prove why 13's combat is "deep"" while you don't provide anything outside of vague answers, so I want to see your list as well.

1. That is done is other ROTK games, including ROTK10 and ROTK8, nothing new there.
2. That is also done is other ROTK games, including ROTK8, ROTK10 has something similar where you can place traps during battle, etc, although it's not directly having that tactics menu, but INT characters had other battle strategies
3. That is also done in other ROTK games, including ROTK8 and ROTK10, nothing new there
4. That is also done in just about any other ROTK games, including ROTK8 and ROTK10.
5. That is also done in other ROTK games, including ROTK8. Each officer had levels based on types of units, so you can level them up. ROTK10, I cannot recall at the moment.
6. That is done is Rise to Power, which I've mentioned before. Cannot recall other ROTK games having that, but ROTK8 had different attacks if you are holding siege in castle, and ROTK10 allowed you to place weapons like towers, catapult, etc
7. That is also done in just about other Koei games, including ROTK8, ROTK10, Rise to Power.
8. That is just subjective opinion without any reasoning behind it.
9. Again that is in other ROTK games including ROTK8, and ROTK10.

So you've added nothing unique that add's depth to existing ROTK games. ROTK10 for example also had stealth feature, weather, terrain, that affects the gameplay outcome, and also debate in the middle of the battle to make them surrender. ROTK10 also allowed units to climb the walls, so you aren't limited to just going through the gates. They also used terrain quite well, so you can break dam, to flood some areas. ROTK10 also has grand battle mode, where there is entirely different combat mode where you are using multiple cities to be in battle. Being able to control multiple prefects and multiple officers over large region including multiple cities to have one grand battle over the entire region.

ROTK8 also had stealth, weather, terrain that affects the gameplay outcome. They had other tactics and strategies such as digging tunnel against siege enemies, traps, making citizens rebel during combat, making enemies turn to your side in mid battle, etc.

Rise to Power also had different weather, so during winter you are much slower in movement due to snow, ability to break walls so instead of charging just the gate, you can break through walls instead. Elevated ground also gave you advantage as you can fight with long range weapons while short range enemies cannot reach you, so they had to go around it. Also being in elevated ground also meant the movement is slower while climbing the terrain, giving you advantage as they are slowed to approach you. Weather also affected the game quite a bit as during rain, some units like muskets were unable to fire their weapons when it is raining.

Only thing you've mention that might be considered unique was weapons on castle walls, which is not often seen in ROTK games, but there has been other koei strategy games that did that already as I mentioned with Rise to Power, which ROTK13 basically copied the gameplay rather poorly.

If that's all ROTK13 has to offer, I think I was right to think ROTK13 is paper thin, considering you've listed features that are in other ROTK games, and they usually had a lot more than that to offer. Especially considering it's features that in ROTK 8 and 10, which those 2 games are generally considered to have quite bad battle system within ROTK series. Those 2 games are beloved because of things they did well outside of battle system, and were enjoyed despite their generally considered bad battles.

Just to add, I don't think just listing all the features of some gameplay is a proof which gameplay is superior or not, including depth. ROTK9 is generally praised to be one of the better battle system in ROTK series, but if you were to list it's feature, it is probably shorter list compared to other ROTK games, as they streamlined so much and automated so much of it's gameplay.

However, it plays smooth. It captures large scale war quite well, and it is so easy to play. Sometimes, less is more, but in case of ROTK13, unfortunately that wasn't the case.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by babobaka:

So you've added nothing unique that add's depth to existing ROTK games. ROTK10 for example also had stealth feature, weather, terrain, that affects the gameplay outcome, and also debate in the middle of the battle to make them surrender.

No debate through battles, yes. Terrain affects by types of traps you could put, also affects speed of your troops. Cannot prove it (could be just my wrong experience), but terrain also affects attack/defense of specific units.

Originally posted by babobaka:

ROTK10 also allowed units to climb the walls, so you aren't limited to just going through the gates.

ROTK13 also has it. Called siege weaponry

Originally posted by babobaka:

They also used terrain quite well, so you can break dam, to flood some areas. ROTK10 also has grand battle mode, where there is entirely different combat mode where you are using multiple cities to be in battle. Being able to control multiple prefects and multiple officers over large region including multiple cities to have one grand battle over the entire region.

Yeah, I cannot think about something like that in ROTK13, because I've probably didn't see it in ROTK10. What the different here? What the benefits of controlling several prefects? I think you can just send reinforcements same way you do in ROTK10/13

Originally posted by babobaka:

ROTK8 also had stealth, weather, terrain that affects the gameplay outcome. They had other tactics and strategies such as digging tunnel against siege enemies, traps, making citizens rebel during combat, making enemies turn to your side in mid battle, etc.

ROTK13 has similar things for tactics, where you can bribe, burrow (dig), ambush, trap, heal, boost troops, etc. So nothing new here.

Originally posted by babobaka:

Rise to Power also had different weather, so during winter you are much slower in movement due to snow, ability to break walls so instead of charging just the gate, you can break through walls instead. Elevated ground also gave you advantage as you can fight with long range weapons while short range enemies cannot reach you, so they had to go around it. Also being in elevated ground also meant the movement is slower while climbing the terrain, giving you advantage as they are slowed to approach you. Weather also affected the game quite a bit as during rain, some units like muskets were unable to fire their weapons when it is raining.

Nice approach to compare ROTK13 with all games. But yeah, would be good if that would be part of ROTK13.

Originally posted by babobaka:

If that's all ROTK13 has to offer, I think I was right to think ROTK13 is paper thin, considering you've listed features that are in other ROTK games, and they usually had a lot more than that to offer.

I still don't see "shallow" vs "paper thin" option. Because from you've mentioned also present in ROTK13.

Originally posted by babobaka:

Especially considering it's features that in ROTK 8 and 10, which those 2 games are generally considered to have quite bad battle system within ROTK series. Those 2 games are beloved because of things they did well outside of battle system, and were enjoyed despite their generally considered bad battles.

And what features outside of battle were great?

[babobaka]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

No debate through battles, yes. Terrain affects by types of traps you could put, also affects speed of your troops. Cannot prove it (could be just my wrong experience), but terrain also affects attack/defense of specific units.

Yup same applies to previous ROTKs as well. Depending on the terrain, the traps you set will be different, and terrain affects stats and movement as well.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Yeah, I cannot think about something like that in ROTK13, because I've probably didn't see it in ROTK10. What the different here? What the benefits of controlling several prefects? I think you can just send reinforcements same way you do in ROTK10/13

The benefit is that it is entirely different gameplay mechanic added on top of normal battle system, and you are fighting on the world map instead of battle staged maps. The number of officers that participate is drastically higher, and the number of factions that gets involved is greatly increased. You can get multiple factions participating in the war.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Nice approach to compare ROTK13 with all games. But yeah, would be good if that would be part of ROTK13.

Yeah Rise to power is great. Sad that Koei made much better games in 2004 than 2016.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

I still don't see "shallow" vs "paper thin" option. Because from you've mentioned also present in ROTK13.

So ROTK13 had stealth mechanic? Did it have interesting skills like tricking enemies into attacking each other mid battle? Suggest enemies to surrender mid fight? Or using advantage of terrain like Rise to Power, so you can snipe your enemies from top of the hill? Or using environmental aspect of the map, like breaking dam to flood areas?

Originally posted by Hanzo:

And what features outside of battle were great?

ROTK8 I've talked about enough. It was really focused on playing specific role, which I don't think explaining it further will help you understand unless you just play the game.

ROTK10 did great job allowing players to have incredible freedom. For example, if you have private army, you can join battle where 2 factions fighting, and decide to help one of them. After the battle, the ruler of that faction would reward you for your assistance and offer you a position his faction.

The game is full of those little touch to give the sense of freedom to players.

The best part of the game was that it does decent job of trying to keep up with the actual ROTK novel story. So as long as you are careful not to break the requirements it needs, you will constantly see events pop up, and the novel's story will happen with or without you, so the game feels like it is one big role playing game where events are constantly happening. You can pretty much get relatively detailed ROTK story by playing the game from year 184 to the end. Sadly maintaining that requirement isn't easy because AI goes through simulation and does not always follow the story exactly. If the requirement cannot be achieved, the story chain gets broken and it goes into just simulation mode. However, if you can keep that chain of events going, and recreate the story from the beginning to the end, it does feel quite epic.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by babobaka:

So ROTK13 had stealth mechanic? Did it have interesting skills like tricking enemies into attacking each other mid battle? Suggest enemies to surrender mid fight? Or using advantage of terrain like Rise to Power, so you can snipe your enemies from top of the hill? Or using environmental aspect of the map, like breaking dam to flood areas?

Once again. You mix mechanics from different games, while main debate here is "shallow" vs "paper thin".
There are no debate mid fight. ROTK13 has Ambush mechanics instead of stealth. No dam breaking. Does ROTK8/10 allow you to summon bandits on enemy town? Or does it have AOE/strike mechanics during battle?
So if those difference make a line between "shallow" vs "paper thin" and

Originally posted by babobaka:

13 is just awful. Avoid 13 like the plague. It will only sour your opinion about ROTK series, and I'm afraid you wouldn't give other more deserving titles a chance.

I'm not sure what to say. I'm shocked.

Originally posted by babobaka:

ROTK8 I've talked about enough. It was really focused on playing specific role, which I don't think explaining it further will help you understand unless you just play the game.

ROTK10 did great job allowing players to have incredible freedom. For example, if you have private army, you can join battle where 2 factions fighting, and decide to help one of them. After the battle, the ruler of that faction would reward you for your assistance and offer you a position his faction.
The game is full of those little touch to give the sense of freedom to players.

Sounds good but ROTK13 also have this mechanics as a free officer. You could also be an assassin and plot to kill any officer/ruler if your WAR stat is high and you have some luck during duels

Originally posted by babobaka:

The best part of the game was that it does decent job of trying to keep up with the actual ROTK novel story. So as long as you are careful not to break the requirements it needs, you will constantly see events pop up, and the novel's story will happen with or without you, so the game feels like it is one big role playing game where events are constantly happening. You can pretty much get relatively detailed ROTK story by playing the game from year 184 to the end. Sadly maintaining that requirement isn't easy because AI goes through simulation and does not always follow the story exactly. If the requirement cannot be achieved, the story chain gets broken and it goes into just simulation mode. However, if you can keep that chain of events going, and recreate the story from the beginning to the end, it does feel quite epic.

Well, ROTK13 also have this. You could set "historical" flow and you could watch how story goes. Though some events could be somehow hard to trigger.

[babobaka]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Once again. You mix mechanics from different games, while main debate here is "shallow" vs "paper thin".
There are no debate mid fight. ROTK13 has Ambush mechanics instead of stealth. No dam breaking. Does ROTK8/10 allow you to summon bandits on enemy town? Or does it have AOE/strike mechanics during battle?
So if those difference make a line between "shallow" vs "paper thin" and

Ambush and stealth is 2 different mechanics in other ROTK games. For example, ROTK10 had stealth mechanic where you can move around while hidden, and perform ambush when opportunity arises.

I don't remember any ROTK games without AOE actually.

As for bandits, ROTK10 don't have mechanics to send bandits, but I guess you can attack any cities as free officer, which basically makes you the bandit.

Also as I've mentioned earlier, I don't believe listing features of game mechanic is any indicator that a game is deeper than another. Although I think I've listed enough to say ROTK13 is lacking in that sense as well. What is important is how the game actually plays. For example, some fighting games have characters with over 100 moves, while games like street fighter has 10. However, Street Fighter is often the deeper fighting game than most other fighting game out there due to different ways you can play the game.

Most units in ROTK13 moves and act quite similar. I don't think range unit actually attacked with significant enough range to make a meaningful strategical difference. Sure it can attack with another ally unit in front of it, but the strategical depth you can make is limited due to short range. Most units in ROTK13 felt more important as rock paper scissor balance it has, rather than actual meaningful way different units plays. Most units moves similar speed, and outside of occasional skill usage, and structure to hide within, it's just matter of putting your units next to enemies units with greater number.

Long story short, I can't think of any other RTS that is more shallow than ROTK13. If you can find one, let me know. I genuinely cannot think of any.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Sounds good but ROTK13 also have this mechanics as a free officer. You could also be an assassin and plot to kill any officer/ruler if your WAR stat is high and you have some luck during duels

Sure, ROTK 10 is similar as you can assault other characters while traveling.

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Well, ROTK13 also have this. You could set "historical" flow and you could watch how story goes. Though some events could be somehow hard to trigger.

How well does it follow the story? Does Liu Bei goes all over the map? His faction getting destroyed, being part of Yuan Shao army, then reconnect with Guan Yu, move bases constantly, until ultimately he creates a nation in Shu? ROTK10 goes through all those event without your input, if the flow is not broken for some reason.

[DatMaPhuka]

If this game is half as good as VIII was, it will be good. All of them have been good in their own way, but VIII was special.

[Vorpal Spoon]

Originally posted by babobaka:

How well does it follow the story? Does Liu Bei goes all over the map? His faction getting destroyed, being part of Yuan Shao army, then reconnect with Guan Yu, move bases constantly, until ultimately he creates a nation in Shu? ROTK10 goes through all those event without your input, if the flow is not broken for some reason.

13 "follows" those events pretty closely, and changes the layout of ruled cities once certain conditions are met. However, I found 13 to be very "finnicky" with regard to historical events playing out if there is too much deviation or if specific characters join other forces or die in battle before their natural/unnatural death dates.

Also, I want add that X's Ambush mechanics is worlds better than 13's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ field tactics shenanigans. While I liked 13 to the point of boredom (because I've beaten it more times than a teen in puberty), X's system is far better than 13 with the exception of the prestige mechanic, which is a flavor Koei should keep. Of the officer playstyles, X still is my personal placeholder. Mayhaps 8 Remake will dethrone it!

[Chortles]

Originally posted by Vorpal Spoon:

13 "follows" those events pretty closely, and changes the layout of ruled cities once certain conditions are met. However, I found 13 to be very "finnicky" with regard to historical events playing out if there is too much deviation or if specific characters join other forces or die in battle before their natural/unnatural death dates.

This seems to be one upside of RTK8R's Tales system, less guesswork involved about how close or far you aware from specific event conditions being matched.

[babobaka]

Originally posted by Vorpal Spoon:

Originally posted by babobaka:

How well does it follow the story? Does Liu Bei goes all over the map? His faction getting destroyed, being part of Yuan Shao army, then reconnect with Guan Yu, move bases constantly, until ultimately he creates a nation in Shu? ROTK10 goes through all those event without your input, if the flow is not broken for some reason.

13 "follows" those events pretty closely, and changes the layout of ruled cities once certain conditions are met. However, I found 13 to be very "finnicky" with regard to historical events playing out if there is too much deviation or if specific characters join other forces or die in battle before their natural/unnatural death dates.

Also, I want add that X's Ambush mechanics is worlds better than 13's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ field tactics shenanigans. While I liked 13 to the point of boredom (because I've beaten it more times than a teen in puberty), X's system is far better than 13 with the exception of the prestige mechanic, which is a flavor Koei should keep. Of the officer playstyles, X still is my personal placeholder. Mayhaps 8 Remake will dethrone it!

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it has same issue as ROTKX in terms of following the story.

Wanted to try it again myself to see if my memories are correct (don't remember much of 13, as it was rather "meh" when I played), but I am unable to get it working on my more recent PC, so I wasn't sure.

It sounds like ROTK13 is pretty much how I remember. Not as fun version of ROTK X.

I did like the event creator idea tho. That should've been staple of this game series like duel, debate, marriage, create character type of thing. That was one good thing that came out of ROTK 13.

[babobaka]

Originally posted by Chortles:

Originally posted by Vorpal Spoon:

13 "follows" those events pretty closely, and changes the layout of ruled cities once certain conditions are met. However, I found 13 to be very "finnicky" with regard to historical events playing out if there is too much deviation or if specific characters join other forces or die in battle before their natural/unnatural death dates.

This seems to be one upside of RTK8R's Tales system, less guesswork involved about how close or far you aware from specific event conditions being matched.

I wonder if Tales system helps to prevent breaking events. Or if it is just list that shows the requirements that needs to be met, and if AI simulated in a way requirement cannot be met, the Tales system shows that you cannot meet the requirement to indicate the event is unreachable now.

ROTK X had many occasions where certain requirements becomes impossible, and events are lost forever, and when one event is broken, often the rest are lost as well.

Understandable, considering simulated AI, but I do wish they had "Historical Mode" where instead of simulating with AI, AI just follows set path, unless player interrupts the set path.

In ROTK X, one of the favorite thing I liked to do is start early in the history, and the follow the history until 3 kingdoms are formed, then I'd break away and do my own thing, creating my own 4 kingdom story. Usually that meant the real game started when I play as one of my children. However, that process was often frustrating as that required me to do a lot of loading multiple saves and using editor.

[Casual Hero]

Dang, ROTK fans are very serious about their games.