Amber Scott (and other writers) seems to be the problem

[General Plastro]

And before anyone says anything, no its not prejudice against SJW,Women,whatever.

Also, ANY profession isnt above criticism, if an engineer designs your forklift to support... say 3 tons and the thing breaks while trying to lift 2 tons, the engineer is directly at fault. Same with writers.

With that said, the problem is that she is just a bad RPG writer.

This is also a respectful Critique of Amber Scott as a writer, while i wont sugercoat the aspects i find her skills lacking, this is not an insult or an attack to her personally, but since she is the lead writer, i assume she is the responsible person for the DLC's story

I have been writing RPG adventures for almost 10 years now, not professionally, but as a hobbist. There are alot of "little things" one picks up while doing that, things that i belive to be only learned through experience. Things that i think miss Amber doesnt have (she seems to a novice to this).

Anyway, on with it (if you have patience for a long wall of text, that is) :D

Every point she wants to bring, even the ones classified as "SJWish" could have been bought up within the universe, not ham-fisted like it was. But let me explain first:

She forgets basic DMing/Adventure making principles such as allowing a multi-branched adventure, diferent outcomes and diferent aligment possibilities for players.

She doesnt even follow the "golden rule" of allowing at least 5 types of Aligments to work within the story. I know its a bit harder to do in videogame RPG, but the vast majority of Virtual RPGs follow that rule somewhat.

She says "Jaheira was Khalid's nagging wife", when even the original writers have said they made Jaheira to be basically the "head,muscle and brains" of the couple, due to Khalid being the weakling he is.

I question if she even really played the game herself, it feels like someone just handed her a resume of the game and she went from there.

And thats not all, she seems to be completely unfamiliar with the setting, either applying real world logic to situations (the gay couple in Wrath of the Rightous). Its as if she doesnt care about the setting or its influence on what she is trying to write.

I will give an example

Lets take Mizhena, since i take most people here know about her even if they didint played the DLC.

If i wanted to make a transexual character, using an elf would be the logical choice, one would even write a in-game dialogue about a transexual elf who gets harrassed by humans and the PC could step in. Maybe said elf would be with his/her own group of friends who find his/her sexuality completely normal, while humans dont.

Elves are much more accepting of diferent kinds of sexuality and one could go to town while making arguments pro and against this atitude with the Elfs vs Humans event.

Ultimately, you would leave up to the player to decide.

One doesnt show "diversity" or actually helps the entire issue by just "handling diversity cards" to generic NPCs

Amber Scott wrote for Paizo (Pathfinder) and got flak for doing horrendous adventures (not the good kind of horrendous).

And sadly, from the way the DLC came out, she hasnt changed.

As an RPG enthusiast, i know at the very least 5 other people who would easily have written something better, 2 of those are women and another is a gay man whose actually a colleague of mine in college.

So, i am sorry Amber, from one writer to another, maybe you can write novels very well, but as a RPG writer?

You suck. :P

Here are some examples found the by community, this is the kind of bad writing that shows the sign of amateurism.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/457488019946441491/4C603D49FD93E2650FB29161E5FC89432296F7B1/

Kudos to Nidair for the screenshot.

Another example:

http://imgur.com/YaCQ8n7

This time, by Orobis.

---

EDIT 3.0: This gem is too good to not get the "top billing" of the my post http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=661701208




EDIT 2.0: Removed my line about her being a bad writer overall, its rude and presumptious of my part, specially since i didint read her novels.

[Gekkibi]

Publicado originalmente por Luisfius:

E: New article, pretty neat, including how some of the decisions were made.
http://www.develop-online.net/interview/beamdog-ceo-we-never-thought-a-transgender-character-was-a-big-deal/0219033

Didn't read it yet but to me it feels like it's going to be a massive red herring...

[DogMeat]

Publicado originalmente por Luisfius:

E: New article, pretty neat, including how some of the decisions were made.
http://www.develop-online.net/interview/beamdog-ceo-we-never-thought-a-transgender-character-was-a-big-deal/0219033

"While Oster is sensitive to fans’ concerns, he emphasises that much of the team has a firm grasp on what is and isn’t appropriate to the series – and hopes players will trust them to handle the franchise responsibly.

“We know Baldur’s Gate through and through,” he says. “There’s a number of us here who have been through the development of the original Baldur’s Gate, Neverwinter Nights and other BioWare content – we live this stuff."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

“My advise to developers would be to be sensitive about these issues – apparently, a transgender character is still a big deal in the modern world. If you’re going to do it, do it well, do it in-depth and do it respectfully.”
Translation: Don't do it like we did it.

[Kidd]

Publicado originalmente por -Turbu-:

Fair point but, the belt isn't actually that expensive. If you sell it to a vendor with neutral charisma(10) you will get about 100 gold pieces. If you buy it back from the said vendor it will cost you about 300 gold pieces. Now you get 10 to 50 gold pieces per quest from candlekeep starting quests for doing simple quests(delivery/pest control). So unless Mizh is completely broke he/she should be able to afford the girdle.

Anybody know how expensive the belt is in-character? Cause BG has never been very accurate representing the already whack Forgotten Realms economy. Getting 50gp running errands within Candlekeep is very silly when 50gp is more than what many in the setting make in a year.

Publicado originalmente por Hunkules:

Clever =) If ONLY real life were like this game

I know, right? Wearing a rainbow wristband at all times or similar is tacky as crap but sometimes I'm thinking everybody who's LGBTQ should. We'd find each other much more easily that way ;)

Publicado originalmente por DoD Enkill_Eridos:

And rational transpeople just want to be known as the biological sex thier brain tells them they are.

Non-binary trans people exist - I know two of them. Even if we don't emotionally understand what that feels like, we should still respect their identities and not call them irrational, methinks.

[Zhorge]

Publicado originalmente por Luisfius:

So, how is having one trans character, with the content gated behind two queries about her identity, ramming social justiceism down anyone's throat.

And it fits the setting.

No it doesn't. It's shoe-horned in with blatent and childish tokenism. Unlike Amber Scott, some of us have been around the block (I'm a Unitarian Universalist) and have, disporportionally , known a lot of trans people.

The childish, SJW way of handling the issue is revolting. This is not how they live except for the 'identy fakes' that hang out on Tumblr and Twitter and give the Upper Middle Class, Nothing Worse than Which IPhone Color to Choose White-Girl the Wrong Ideas.

The bottom-line is, Amber Scott was a failed writer who got snagged up by Beamdog. And she's just another shallow, talentless White Girl who thinks she's edgy and wants to brow-beat everyone else with her 'issues' and 'POV' even though she doesn't actually have any issues and her POV is childish.

[Arlen]

Can we just stop with the stupid Trans issue already - This is where certain adversarial folks want to have the community stuck on. The issues with this fan mod is WAAYYY beyond the mere crappy way the character was written. If you allow yourself to be steered into just focusing on the bloody Trans crap then you fall into the trap (no pun intended). FFS, people, this is a tactic utilized by Alinsky followers, ignore all other issues but the one you want to be part of the narrative.

[DogMeat]

Publicado originalmente por billybobtexan1000:

Can we just stop with the stupid Trans issue already - This is where certain adversarial folks want to have the community stuck on. The issues with this fan mod is WAAYYY beyond the mere crappy way the character was written. If you allow yourself to be steered into just focusing on the bloody Trans crap then you fall into the trap (no pun intended). FFS, people, this is a tactic utilized by Alinsky followers, ignore all other issues but the one you want to be part of the narrative.

****ing nailed it.

[Tanist]

Publicado originalmente por billybobtexan1000:

Can we just stop with the stupid Trans issue already - This is where certain adversarial folks want to have the community stuck on. The issues with this fan mod is WAAYYY beyond the mere crappy way the character was written. If you allow yourself to be steered into just focusing on the bloody Trans crap then you fall into the trap (no pun intended). FFS, people, this is a tactic utilized by Alinsky followers, ignore all other issues but the one you want to be part of the narrative.

Yep, plenty of things to focus on... things like how BD treats its customers by calling them names while at the same time having the audacity to lecture customers on how they are to speak to the developers.

[Arlen]

Publicado originalmente por DogMeat:

Publicado originalmente por billybobtexan1000:

Can we just stop with the stupid Trans issue already - This is where certain adversarial folks want to have the community stuck on. The issues with this fan mod is WAAYYY beyond the mere crappy way the character was written. If you allow yourself to be steered into just focusing on the bloody Trans crap then you fall into the trap (no pun intended). FFS, people, this is a tactic utilized by Alinsky followers, ignore all other issues but the one you want to be part of the narrative.

****ing nailed it.

Every conversation critical of Beamdog has been successfully steered into focusing on the character. And every time, people fall into it believing the person they are discussing this with is arguing from a position of honesty. They are NOT honest. They are deliberate and calculating. They are building and solidifying the narrative that the BG community is a bunch of phobes. Utilize some critical thinking and critical analysis. Ask yourself Why is this person only talking about the character and NOT addressing any of your other concerns. Once you do that, you will see the whole picture and not just the small conversation you are having at the moment.

[Arlen]

The most deadly thing to Idealogues is a person capable of critical thinking, critical analysis, and an understanding on how perceptions can become truth regardless of the truth.

[Luis]

Publicado originalmente por Zhorge:

No it doesn't.

Yes, it does. It breaks nothing mechanically, and even Ed Greenwood has mentioned HOW it fits the setting.

It's shoe-horned in with blatent and childish tokenism.

Shoe-horned how? The writers wanting to have one?
Also, that is discussed in the interview with Oster, here, let me quote a quote:

"“[The revelation that she is transgender] is what we consider three dialogue nodes deep,” Oster explains. “We put an arbitrary limit on our writers for our support characters of just three nodes deep, just to control wordcount. Siege of Dragonspear is over 500,000 words of dialogue, so we had to put limits on writers so they didn’t create more."

"“Obviously we wanted to explore her story in a broader, deeper way, but the three-line limitation cut it off. If anyone was going to get to the fact that this character is transgender, they had to do it pretty fast. Upon my review of the character, I think that within three lines it’s actually quite well done.”"

"As such, despite calls to have Mizhena or her backstory removed from the game completely, Beamdog is dropping its three-line limit in this case in order to better present this revelation. Oster promises that the writers will be revisiting this character and finding a way for players to “develop a relationship” with her before she discloses this highly personal information.

“We have this character, we have a series of reasons why she is the way she is, it’s obviously captured the attention of a lot of people, so we should expand her story,” he says."

Or is just the ADDITION of a trans character being trans just because she is trans tokenism? Literally just there to add flavor to a minor npc.

Unlike Amber Scott, some of us have been around the block (I'm a Unitarian Universalist) and have, disporportionally , known a lot of trans people.

Good on you!

[Arlen]

Publicado originalmente por Luisfius:

Publicado originalmente por Zhorge:

No it doesn't.

Yes, it does. It breaks nothing mechanically, and even Ed Greenwood has mentioned HOW it fits the setting.

It's shoe-horned in with blatent and childish tokenism.

Shoe-horned how? The writers wanting to have one?
Also, that is discussed in the interview with Oster, here, let me quote a quote:

"“[The revelation that she is transgender] is what we consider three dialogue nodes deep,” Oster explains. “We put an arbitrary limit on our writers for our support characters of just three nodes deep, just to control wordcount. Siege of Dragonspear is over 500,000 words of dialogue, so we had to put limits on writers so they didn’t create more."

"“Obviously we wanted to explore her story in a broader, deeper way, but the three-line limitation cut it off. If anyone was going to get to the fact that this character is transgender, they had to do it pretty fast. Upon my review of the character, I think that within three lines it’s actually quite well done.”"

"As such, despite calls to have Mizhena or her backstory removed from the game completely, Beamdog is dropping its three-line limit in this case in order to better present this revelation. Oster promises that the writers will be revisiting this character and finding a way for players to “develop a relationship” with her before she discloses this highly personal information.

“We have this character, we have a series of reasons why she is the way she is, it’s obviously captured the attention of a lot of people, so we should expand her story,” he says."

Or is just the ADDITION of a trans character being trans just because she is trans tokenism? Literally just there to add flavor to a minor npc.

Unlike Amber Scott, some of us have been around the block (I'm a Unitarian Universalist) and have, disporportionally , known a lot of trans people.

Good on you!

This person right here is a narrative builder, He has successfully steered many conversations critical of Beamdog into focusing on the characters bad writing. Do some research and read - look at what he focuses on regardless of his opponents other concerns.

[Luis]

Publicado originalmente por billybobtexan1000:

Publicado originalmente por Luisfius:

Yes, it does. It breaks nothing mechanically, and even Ed Greenwood has mentioned HOW it fits the setting.


Shoe-horned how? The writers wanting to have one?
Also, that is discussed in the interview with Oster, here, let me quote a quote:

"“[The revelation that she is transgender] is what we consider three dialogue nodes deep,” Oster explains. “We put an arbitrary limit on our writers for our support characters of just three nodes deep, just to control wordcount. Siege of Dragonspear is over 500,000 words of dialogue, so we had to put limits on writers so they didn’t create more."

"“Obviously we wanted to explore her story in a broader, deeper way, but the three-line limitation cut it off. If anyone was going to get to the fact that this character is transgender, they had to do it pretty fast. Upon my review of the character, I think that within three lines it’s actually quite well done.”"

"As such, despite calls to have Mizhena or her backstory removed from the game completely, Beamdog is dropping its three-line limit in this case in order to better present this revelation. Oster promises that the writers will be revisiting this character and finding a way for players to “develop a relationship” with her before she discloses this highly personal information.

“We have this character, we have a series of reasons why she is the way she is, it’s obviously captured the attention of a lot of people, so we should expand her story,” he says."

Or is just the ADDITION of a trans character being trans just because she is trans tokenism? Literally just there to add flavor to a minor npc.


Good on you!

This person right here is a narrative builder, He has successfully steered many conversations critical of Beamdog into focusing on the characters bad writing. Do some research and read - look at what he focuses on regardless of his opponents other concerns.

The narrative was baked-in on this thread to begin with, though.
Here, let me copy and paste from the OP

"If you want to make a Trans/Gay/Bi/Treeophile character, then make one because it's cool and fits the story. Not because your looking to "force" Social Justiceism into a game.


Just because I like ***** doesn't mean there has to be a character in the games I play that likes ***** too."

[Arlen]

Publicado originalmente por Luisfius:

Publicado originalmente por billybobtexan1000:

This person right here is a narrative builder, He has successfully steered many conversations critical of Beamdog into focusing on the characters bad writing. Do some research and read - look at what he focuses on regardless of his opponents other concerns.

The narrative was baked-in on this thread to begin with, though.

The OP's view on the character was an aside, His main focus was the crappy writing as a whole. It is people like YOU who want to turn this into just the characters identity.

Here let me clarify the OP's main point for you

That said, your reaction of "I'm happy to be an SJW and hope to write many Social Justice Games in the Future..." -https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/42770/debate-something-for-the-gaymers

Is offensive and ignorant of everyone who has played or was looking to play Baldur's Gate since it's creation all those years ago. You took a cherished franchise and chose to use it as a platform for your opinion.

Clarifying my issue isn't with the DLC or any of the content in it. I'm grateful that Amber Scott and all the other members of Beamdog came together in the first place to even make new content. So, good on you. Can't wait to see what the future holds. Hopefully you guys can recover from the massive negative feedback this has generated and the series won't forever be marred and sullied by this controversy.

[Luis]

Publicado originalmente por billybobtexan1000:

Publicado originalmente por Luisfius:

The narrative was baked-in on this thread to begin with, though.

The OP's view on the character was an aside, His main focus was the crappy writing as a whole. It is people like YOU who want to turn this into just the characters identity.

Nah. I responded to the OP in that aspect, because the claim was that it a) Did not fit the setting. (Hint, the character does fit)
b) The reason for why the writers wanted it. Which is literally author fiat. You might dislike the devs and writers' political stances or agendas, but that does not make them unfit to write anything they please.

If others after the OP keep bringing it back and I continue to respond to them, that's their prerogative, and mine respectively.
It just happens that others, unprompted, continued with the same line of silly complaints.

[Arlen]

The op is critical of the writers injection of her particular political view in the game. Her political view is beyond just the Vharacter in question, it is critical of dialogue between Safana and Corwen, how Safana and jaheira were changed to suit her particular particular quirks. You focus just on that one character.

Reading comprehension - you should utilize it.