Kensai, What Good Is He?

[danconnors]

Can't wear any armor, even if he dual classes to a cleric. That means his best possible armor class, obtainable only in BG 2, is -3 (+2 ring, ring of Gax, and cloak of the sewers). That means he is basically all offense, no defence. He can dish it out, but he can't take it. I've had mages with a higher armor class.

Doesn't seem like this guy's going to last too long in a melee. He's not supposed to be able to use missile weapons, but in actuality he can use throwing daggers, throwing axes, and probably throwing hammers (didn't try them). So he'll be able to use the returning axes and daggers found later on in the game.

So, my guess is, this class is for those of us looking for a challenge, because he seems awfully easy to kill.

[Kailu The Bhaalspawn]

Kensai are high damage but easy to hit, just keep that in mind and play around it it's all up to you on what to do in the end.

[Soft Lockpick]

Dan is just trolling guys. He's arguing that AC is a defense that matters in the end game. Leave him to it. There's no winning with someone who's getting their jollies from telling right people they're wrong.

[danconnors]

Great way to win an argument. If someone disagrees with you they're a troll.

[KrazyOne]

Kensai is what it is. You either enjoy it or you don't. Yet there is no denying the power level of the class. In the right players control it can be the single most destructive class in the game. Especially when you combine it with Thief, Mage or Druid. Has the ability to hit extremely hard while shoring up it weakness through spell casting or stealth.

[MightyMickey88]

Also, spirit armor lasts a long time and gives the kensai all the armor he needs. My main is usually Kensai dual scimitar with my mage backing him with armor buff spells. Kensai is known throughout the community as hands down the best damage class. Dual-Wield and he shreds opponents in moments. Also, later on AC becomes useless as most opponents will easily beat your AC no matter what. It's also pretty difficult to aggro opponents to attack a single PC.

[Soft Lockpick]

Publicado originalmente por danconnors:

Great way to win an argument. If someone disagrees with you they're a troll.

Has nothing to do with disagreeing with me. Some things are just mechanically true. AC is one of the weakest forms of defense throughout the series. In a game with "sheet" protection like stoneskin, mirror image, etc. And immunity to being targeted through illusions... AC ain't nothing.

It's just true because it is. In the same way that a better attack bonus is just better.

Sorry bud, your trolling is obvious.

[danconnors]

As is your breeding. Armor class IS important all the way through Baldur's Gate and through a large portion of BG2. It could have remaied somewhat important if not for some poor design concepts in the original game.

For instance, why is a ring of protection (or cloak) impossible to wear with enchanted armor? It can be worn with bracers AC3 which are obviously magically enhaced bracers. Why can't bracers, cloaks, and amulets AC bonuses stack? In many games they can, Skyrim for instance.

In Neverwinter Nights, the follow on game to BG2 armor class was measured differently, but an armor class of 30, the equivalent of AC-20, was not uncommon. Even a THAC0 of -9 would have an excellent chance of failing to damage such an armor class.

Finally, we have the monk, one of which I started tonight. He is only level 6, so far, but his armor class is already -3, better than a Kensai will ever get. In addition he has superhuman speed, and already has some flaming hands, et al. When he gets into higher levels his hands will do more damage than a Kensai's attacks, AND his armor class will continue to get better. He's not allowed to wear armor either, but looks to have far more potential than the Kensai.

[kaiyl_kariashi]

The importance of AC depends heavily on your party, class, and tactics. Level is mostly irrelevant I've found, though contigent to your above, much like AC, it's importance is variable, though unlike AC, more is good but not strictly required, where as AC can actually hinder you for stacking too much depending on what strategy you're trying to employ.

For me, AC is worthless from the moment character creation ends because the enemies don't live long enough to matter. Either because of using stealth to quickly kill and disable them or scouting ahead and setting a trap to lead them into, spells to similar effects or simply cutting them down with massed volley fire, or some combination thereof.


it goes back to the shield vs off-hand weapon debate. bonus AC and passives vs up to 2 extra attacks and passives. Longer battle (more attacks that need to be avoided) vs Shorter battle (fewer attacks to be avoided). The AC from the shield becomes nessecary because you kill the enemies more slowly then if you had extra attacks vs simply killing them quickly and being exposed to fewer attacks.


Vs the normal character a vet typically makes AC is essentially worthless, unless they aren't bothering to fully ultilize their resources and capabilites to the fullest, since the average vet character is a powerhouse that can annilate the entire game solo even if they ignore armor.

Vs a character someone completely in dark at what stats do and a poor understanding of the fact that most 2nd edition stats are empty, AC is potentially worthwhile, since the longer you take to kill your enemies, the more valuable AC becomes since you're exposed to more and more attacks the longer a battle drags on. More attacks equals more chances for them to roll high enough to hit or to land multiple hits.


I've found that relatively low ACs of 4 to 6, are really all you need if you take a offensive focused approach to encounters and utiliize scouting to minimize the chances of being caught off guard and so you accurately plan your order of attacks to isolate and destroy the biggest threat first (or remove them from the equasion and pick off the weaker first). Because enemies just aren't that good at hitting things aside for bosses (or spells which mostly ignore AC anyway)...who are a single target to focus a bunch of fire on or can be trivialized by simple spells...or later simply killed outright within a round or two, long before they can become a threat. And most group enemies die in a hit or two and are generally trivial.


I generally only use armor for it's other benefits such as passive defenses vs certain spells or resistances vs damage that can't be avoided.

[danconnors]

Scouting??? Seems like a very slow game if you constantly send out people, I suppose a ranger or a thief, to scout ahead. I generally keep the thief right behind me in controlled mode, to catch traps before I set them off. Even then the game is slowed so much by waiting for the thief to finally detect the trap that I often just detect them by walking on them (gives the cleric something to do).

In my experience AC 6 is useless even if you're only fighting kobolds. I try to get the poor thief into some decent enhanced studded leather ASAP, because poor Imoen doesn't last very long in regular studded leather. I'm trying to picture my berserker, before he dual classes to berkmage, going toe to toe with Seravok in regular studded leather. I believe he'd lose.

Buffs are okay, but they are temporary, and they have a bad habit of being dispelled. Real armor can be penetrated, but it can't be dispelled. Also, the game progresses faster if you don't have to spend ten minutes going into every big fight casting spells on each other.

Given the choice of a heavily armored character who can dish out enormous damage, the berserker/mage or a lightly armored character who can dish out enormous damage, the kensai/mage, I'm going to have to go with the berkmage. I gave the kensai a chance, up to level 6,but he just wasn't hacking it. The monk I started last night is doing much better.

[Soft Lockpick]

Dan - That indicates a lack of deliberation in your playstyle, not a weakness of the class. Yeah if you just box and click you're going to run into issues with your buffs and AC. If you don't scout or anything....

It comes down to mindset. Playing with a careful style AC is damn near useless. Compared to the other methods of defense that can give you absolute immunity if you just scout and know what's coming it's pathetic. If you play the game more tactically AC is merely a nice to have. It doesn't hurt to have more, but it's a weak defense compared to all other options. And it scales poorly in the end game anyway.

But sure, if you just box and click you'll rely on it more. Even then, though, just hook your Kensai up with a reach weapon like halberds and stick him in the back row. He'll become a damage dealing monstrosity right quick. Or throwing weapons. Same impact.

That the class may not be for you I'm fine with hearing. But your lack of understanding on how to use the character is not a failure of the class.

[danconnors]

I'm the leader of my party. That means, whatever I'm playing, thief/mage, berserker/mage, or today a monk, I lead. I've led my party into Hell and back. Clunsy, unsporting, unintelligent, we kick the Hell out of whatever or whoever comes against us. Our fights are brutal, high damage fights; at times I've had my mage cast a fireball right into the middle of a melee I'm engaged in. I've resurrected dead party members in the middle of a fight, re-equipped them with spare stuff in my bag of holding, and sent them right back into the battle.

As a kensai I don't believe I can lead, and it's not my play style to sit back and plunk missiles from behind. It's a role playing game, and that's my style of playing.

[Soft Lockpick]

Right. And that's not a failure of the class. You're willfully ignoring some aspects of how the game and party management work. The class is fine. You just don't want to do the things that make it good.

There's a difference between that and a weak class. See Beast Master or Wizard Slayer for details.

[Gorila Albino]

Danconnors,
You don't need to worry about AC while playing a kensai. His damage output is just the biggest in the game. By the end o SOA ur kensai will have a total bonus of +6 to THAC0 and damage, and a bonus speed of -4.In throne of bhaal that can go up to +13 hit and damage and -10 speed, making this class the fastest and the deadliest. If you make a dual wielding Kensai with katanas, your speed will top any dagger user, not to meniton the incredibly strong Celestial fury stun on hit. Your kensai will keep most monsters stuned forever, even if the target is under stoneskin or magic weapons protection.
As a kensai, you don't have to put more than 3 points in a single weapon. The bonus he receives for damage and hit applys to all weapons(even those he isn't proficient with). Witch means u'll have a greater variety of weapons to use, without being locked on a single weapon (when u put 5 points in a single weapon). If you still choose to grand master ina weapon, the bonus of the class make the other weapons perfectably usable, even with the -1 penalty.

Finally, Kensai isn't a tanking character. If ur willing to use it to tank, you're doing it wrong. Plus, there are tons of itens u can use to improve his AC against certain types of damage, like the extremely cheap boots "sense of the cat +5" witch increases ur AC by 5 against all kinds of missile weapons, belts and cloaks that increase vs slashing, crushing etc.
You can dual it to mage, making use of the spells armor, shield and ghost armor, and up to stoneskin and protection from magical weapons (witch is far better than ANY AC score). While dualing to thief, you'll be able to pick 'ANY ITEM' HLA witch will overide ANY restriction of this class.
Put a berserker to fight a kensai 5 lvls lower with equivalent gear. u'll be surprised of the outcome. =D

[Bishop]

This thread is like 3 years old, lol.

Pure kensai makes one of the best if not the best ranged character in the game. Probably better than pure archer.
First he can be a dwarf, which means 20+ to con and +5 to shorty saves.
Second he can use throwning daggers and axes, which gives him access to firetooth and that +4 axe. Both apply str and kensai thac0/dmg bonuses to each hit, and with daggers and grandmastery with dagger kensau reaches 4 apr at 13 lvl. 5 apr with haste and 8 with improved haste. He still can switch to melee and dual wield with something like balm in off hand to get 10 apr if necessary.
Third his low AC becomes almost irrelevant if he's a ranged, a dwarf's huge hp and saves will compensate for the rest.

[wendigo211]

The Kensai is far from useless, but the Berserker/Mage is very competitive, largely because you can stick weapon spec bracers on the Berserker, you can't on the Kensai/Mage. If you dual at level 7:

• Berserker gets: +1 to hit and +2 to damage from bracers. But when raging the cumulative bonus is a +3 to hit, +4 to damage and +2 to AC
  
• Kensai gets: +2 to hit and damage and +2 to AC

Obviously, the Berserker can't rage all the time, but when raging the Berserker 7/Mage is better than the the Kensai 7/Mage. When not raging the Kensai has a +1 to hit and +2 to AC edge.
It's not unless you dual at 12 (13 more likely) that the Kensai gains an edge over the raging Berserker with a +4 to hit and damage and +2 to AC. Even then, by that level the +1 to hit doesn't really matter, you already have a negative THAC0, and are probably in "only miss on a 1" territory against most opponents. While the Kensai's bonuses are up all the time, the Berserker does get a ton of immunities from Rage as well.

I'm not saying the Kensai sucks (it is one of my favorite kits), but when you consider that the Kensai is giving up the armor slot, bracer slot and conventional ranged weapons, for the same bonuses as the Archer, and similar bonuses to the Swashbuckler (+1 to AC, hit and damage every 5 levels), it does seem that the Kensai got the short end of the stick.