good blackguard? evil blackguard?

[Tactic2178]

i dont want to senselessly kill innocent animated characters. But, I want to have the abilities of a blackguard.
Any way to easily lower reputation without actually being evil? That would be cool because i would also love the evil powers.
The other option would be ignoring that and acting good. Would anything be wrong with a good blackguard? no evil powers but i still get spells and poison etc.

thanks folks.

[Centurion]

So, normally I am the first one to bite on these posts. And, yes, what you suggest is possible. But why? Three things:

1) REP management is easy. Demand payment for deeds or do the evil end of the deed. You will at least lose the +1 Rep, and can lose Rep too. Get caught stealing, but escape without killing anyone also can lower Rep. Just adding Dorn or Viconia lowers Rep. (-2)

2) All paladins get spells, although real ones cannot cast purely evil spells (cause light wounds, etc.) Poison is really a so-so ability. Pretty cool in the basic game, but it loses its fizz in SoD & BG2. Same with Cloak of Fear. It will not impress demons, liches, and dragons.

3) I am mostly a powergamer, but experimenting with my RPG side more and more. And here is the thing. This is role-playing. Blackguards are evil on steroids. And playing the game evil, at least once, will make you see storylines you don't get in a Good/Neutral run. But, if you decide to be an Assassin, Priest of Talos, or Blackguard, play it. Kill the sculptor and take the emeralds and bounty! Take out the homeowner who caught you stealing. Own it! And for sure off that do-gooder Drizzt. It's an immoral imperative.

Yes, you can play a wimpy evil if you want, and probably negative manage REP. But a "Good" blackguard is not something I am going to help enable. Roll a paladin, forget the poison, and just follow your animated character morality!

[Tactic2178]

thanks! well said! *grin*

[Tactic2178]

so... inquisitor or cavalier?

[Wicket W. Warrick]

I think that you could play blackguard and don't bother too much about reputation.
Being evil is not about killing random innocent citizen,

There's also a misunderstanding about reputation. Reputation is how people see you, not how you are. Thnk about 2-3 historical character that you think are "evil", how was their reputation? Probably very high.
You only need to manage rep in order to get it sufficent low that evil character stay in the party. Avoiding good choices like helping innocent people, flooding the mines is sufficient, or seeking economic advantages, it is sufficiente expecially if taking Viconia or Dorn in the party. Anyway stealing in houses and trying to corrupt officiers, then fleeing without killing them is also sufficient.

But you need to play evil, otherwise the all rp's Blackguard characterization is futile. Evil is to contrast the forces of life and good, not being a mad killer. A blackguard is a champion of evil, not a good but fallen paladin (e.g. a paladin that want to take goodness in his own way). As a blackguard you won't fight the iron crisis and Sarevok to bring peace and good to the lands, but for reaching more power and to get vengeance (for istance, or for other evil reasons). You won't help people finding the ring of their beloved, you will sell it. And so on.

[itsu]

Publicado originalmente por Centurion:

So, normally I am the first one to bite on these posts. And, yes, what you suggest is possible. But why? Three things:

Kill the sculptor and take the emeralds and bounty!

Killing the sculptor works for good alligned palis too. You give him a chance to surrender the emeralds, he declines and ignores you. Get your thief to take them and if not successful he turns hostile (though does not attack). So what then? Attempt anything else and he runs...fast...potentially dragging you into fights with dire wolves etc. But he needs to be brought to justice (embezzler + thief) seeing palis follow the law and he's a crim, right? Well aimed arrow to his back stopped him. No rep loss

And surely an evil pali would sell the stolen emeralds rather than hand them over for the meagre bounty. I think you can get around 700 gold more if you sell them, but obviously evil (sale of stolen goods).

[itsu]

Publicado originalmente por Tactic2178:

so... inquisitor or cavalier?

I'm playing cavalier, it' good, but no horse. The definition of a 'cavalier' is of a mounted knight i.e. cavalry. So a bit silly to be honest...it's like playing an obese thief

edit: I'm joking obviously, as a light role-player I justify no horse by the fact they are pretty rare on the Sword Coast and Candlekeep does does not have a stables, so he wouldn't know how to ride, though he aspires to own a horse one day. Cavalier is fun to play

[Centurion]

Publicado originalmente por Tactic2178:

so... inquisitor or cavalier?

You sound like a Cavalier. I am running one right now, which is a big challenge due to the inability to use bows. Inquisitor is probably easier and more useful in BG1.

But I am 'simul-gaming' an evil fighter who will dual to mage. More into power than murder, but happy to off anyone that benefits him. Drizzt for sure, just for his armor!

[Centurion]

Publicado originalmente por Wasabi:

Publicado originalmente por Tactic2178:

so... inquisitor or cavalier?

I'm playing cavalier, it' good, but no horse. The definition of a 'cavalier' is of a mounted knight i.e. cavalry. So a bit silly to be honest...it's like playing an obese thief

edit: I'm joking obviously, as a light role-player I justify no horse by the fact they are pretty rare on the Sword Coast and Candlekeep does does not have a stables, so he wouldn't know how to ride, though he aspires to own a horse one day. Cavalier is fun to play

It;s even worse than that. In 2d edition the Cavalier is a Fighter kit, not a Paladin! I am more and more convinced that Bioware was programming an AD&D "like" game. They played pretty loose with the PnP system.

[Wicket W. Warrick]

Publicado originalmente por Centurion:

It;s even worse than that. In 2d edition the Cavalier is a Fighter kit, not a Paladin! I am more and more convinced that Bioware was programming an AD&D "like" game. They played pretty loose with the PnP system.

Not exactly, in 2nd edition kits can be assigned to all warrior classes, so you can have a fighter cavalier or a paladin cavalier (The complete fighter handbook). The DM choose what kit were available.

The point is that it is difficult if not impossibile to tell what is the exact set of rules, since 2nd edition had lots of differente rules from different books, that evolved during tme, and often rules were also put in settings, so different sets, different rules. House rule were more freely implemented.
The rules depended on the ssources you chose (and consider that outside US and UK not all the books were available) and the table (the DM) had to choose what to apply.

We are also speaking of something very old, do you really remember all the rules that you played at the time? I don't, I need to go in the manual and read also the most basic (and that's what I did for answering you).

Furthermore you need to consider that anything that has been developped from year 2000 (from BG2 on) is somehow influenced by 3rd edition that came out the same year.

I am more cautious to judge the way that rules were implemented. All D&D games were made almost exclusevely for D&D players because few not d&d players played them, differently form nowaday. So interpretation and even modification of the rules at the time were completely accepted, while today that we seek with nostalgia an "old canon" we tend to be more severe than at the time, but probably a canonic set doesnt exist. I think also that programming was dfferent and gave some constraints, noone cared if cavalier was a pal or a fighter, probably we should not care today.

[Centurion]

Publicado originalmente por Wicket W. Warrick:

We are also speaking of something very old, do you really remember all the rules that you played at the time? I don't, I need to go in the manual and read also the most basic (and that's what I did for answering you).

Actually, I learned all this recently when I found the 2e materials at Archive. It appears that the original 2e player manual was even more basic than 1e in many ways, but then TSR began to publish a torrent of supplemental books that, among other things, expanded the classes enormously. I am guessing Bioware just picked and choosed out of what was there.

To answer your question, I am more retro. I actually began in school with the basic set, if you can believe it, and then 1e in high school and college. I ran out of fellow players around 1986 (grad school was too busy anyway) and so I have never owned or played 2e or anything beyond it. At a store last year I tried to browse the 5e rules, but they gave me a headache. For what it's worth, I still own my three main 1e books and a ton of scenarios.

I like BG & IWD because they are close enough to 1e for me to relate to. I really struggled to get into IWD2 and am not really eager to try BG3 either. Feats and skills are not really my thing.

[Kamuizin]

On any game i play evil in BG/BG2 losing of reputation is treated as a reward and not bad roleplaying consequence.

I build my infamy with many quests, not a random peasant killed in daylight.

Translating that, the game sometimes allow a quest to be solved in the evil way.

Some of them can be checked bellow:

https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Reputation#Quests

Not everything is listed there. You can Solve the Druid trademeet quest in the evil way in BG2, when you speak with the mayor, he's pissed off and you lose 2 points of reputation. But that guide may give you some way to work your rep loss.

[itsu]

Centurion and Wicket, you two are RPG Gods..! Tabletopping in the 80s. Unfortunately D'n'D was never as big where I lived. Hence why I got into Ultima Online initially. I was guild master for the 3rd largest guild (350 players) on the famous Europa shard. Magical times. I had a captain of the guard/enforcer (a scouse nutter), a queen (who betrayed me), and my advisor who ultimately stole my guild (considering it was worth a few k real life money..no small thing) . The politics and intrigue rivaled a Hollywood movie..crazy times. Then after I discovered BG, which weened me off UO and heartbreak (losing my guild I worked hard to build)