Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition

Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition

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Why can't elves be paladins?
Seems quite odd to me. And a bit annoying. :(
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Showing 1-15 of 24 comments
Wicket W. Warrick Jan 1, 2024 @ 8:43am 
Remember that we are talking about quarter of a century old game.

It is all related to old AD&D. We can give many in game explanation, but in fact it is related to the long to emerge distinction between classes and races.
In old school game and in early D&D edition non human races were considered classes. So you choose between a mage (human), a barbarian (human), a fighter (human), an elf or a dwarf. So an elf could only be an elf (i.e. a fighter mage) and a dwarf could only be a dwarf (i.e. a special fighter).
2nd edition is kind of a mix, so non human could be some classes, but not all. 3rd edition changed it all.

Anyway it is not a game choice, but it is related to the AD&D rules. Since also the lore of the game is based on this, this could not be changed. Seems odd today, seemed perfectly coherent 25 years ago.
Old time, old school, old fashion, old tastes.
Officer Nice Jan 1, 2024 @ 8:59am 
Grazie, Mr. Warrick. I very much appreciate the thorough answer. :) Was hoping to bring my old WoW character alive, but that will have to wait. ;) I guess I will play as his wicked cousin, or something.

I hope you've had a great Christmas and a finger-preserving New Year's Eve. :)
Centurion Jan 1, 2024 @ 2:59pm 
Originally posted by Officer Nice:
Grazie, Mr. Warrick. I very much appreciate the thorough answer. :) Was hoping to bring my old WoW character alive, but that will have to wait. ;) I guess I will play as his wicked cousin, or something.

I hope you've had a great Christmas and a finger-preserving New Year's Eve. :)

Who says you can't?

What you have heard so far is essentially correct, but me being me, let me expand. In theory this is 2e AD&D. However, I found the 2e Player Manual at Archive and, guess what? It's not! At least not the original, in which Dwarves lose CHA, not DEX, and there were no playable Half-Orcs. And the play tables, Weapons Proficiencies, Spell Tables, etc. are all different. And no kits. However, 2e apparently expanded like crazy (pity the budgets of 2e kids) with added rule books expanding every class, new classes, new abilities, etc. So, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are more like, "inspired by 2e," than actual 2e. (Fun fact: One major reason for 2e was to expunge all references to demons and devils is response to political pressure and attract more kids. Baldur's Gate is loaded with them!)

Where was I? Oh yes, race and class. So, in 3e (which quickly got replaced by 3.5e) the racial restrictions on class were sort of abolished. This was the system in IWD2. Instead, some races had advantages or disadvantages in certain classes. You could be a Drow Paladin, but not as effective as a Aasimar one. My theory is the game designers stuck somewhat to 2e both for authenticity (which they actually violate, a lot) and play balance. Think about it: A human 20 y.o. fighter can become a grand master in long swords in a few days/weeks of game time, while an elven fighter/thief, who could live 1000 years, will never learn how to be better than specialized? Balanced, but not very logical.

But here is the GREAT thing about fantasy (games, literature, etc.) Who says you can't? The designers, maybe, for theoretical play balance (if so, they did a lousy job. Some classes overpower, some stink.) This leads to two groups of players. Those who admire the original design and consider anything other than "vanilla" to be heresy, and those who want more freedom, creativity, and maybe PnP authenticity. And if it sounds like cheating, then why were some of the original and best Mods made by the actual designers, including the one that became the Tweak Pack?

Anyway, I agree with you OP. So much so, I just began running a Ha;f-Orc Cavalier! You read that right! And with starting CON of 23 because, for RPG, I like the idea of a regenerating Half-Orc and want to have a character who eventually has a Stat of 25 in something other than their primary attribute. For me it's fun.

The previous post leads you to the right resources, but let me explain your two approaches:

1) CD Tweaks (Tweaks Pack) allows you to almost completely customize both BG games (and other IE games too!) There are options to remove all racial restrictions on classes, as well as on who can dual or multi-class. I like the one that allows Barbarian and Sorcerer dual classes. You can also implement full 2e rules as opposed to the Nerf ones the designers use (it does make the game WAY easier.) Anyway, this gives you the option to roll any race/class combos. You can have a Halfling Mage if you want,

2) EEKeeper (what I just used.) Roll a legal character, e.g. a human paladin, and then use EEKeeper to change the race. If you are somewhat honest, you should alter the stats for race (give the new elf paladin +1 DEX and -1 CON.) And don't forget to go into the Appearance tab and change their avatar to the correct race.

And don't feel bad about breaking the "rules." Custom characters are not that unbalancing (unless you grant god-like stats) and the developers do it all over the place. In BG1 you have a Half-Orc Blackguard (illegal), a fighter/thief with an illegal DEX, a Dwarf with illegal CON, and a wizard and a thief with special power gear. In SoD you a non-playable race (Goblin) Shaman. In BG2 you get another unplyable race Blade and a Vampire thief. And a Bear. So, why can't you do what you want to add some 'spice' to the game.

Nice Officer, go right ahead and make yourself an Elf paladin and play onward. And pick a good kit while you are at it!

Spent yesterday rolling some new characters for parallel playthroughs, so my arthritic fingers did not get preserved!
Last edited by Centurion; Jan 1, 2024 @ 3:06pm
Officer Nice Jan 2, 2024 @ 4:19am 
Thank you very much for the link to Hopper, and a _VERY_ thorough post by Centurion. :D I won't be using the mod, mainly because I am on Linux. While I possibly could get it to work, I can't be bothered. It's probably a good idea to get out of my Paladin comfort zone. :) So I will play as my Paladin's estranged thieving sister in BG 1 & 2. And then the Paladin can return in all his glory in BG 3. :D

Thank you, once more, I appreciate you guys taking the time to post the information. :)
Daniel Jan 2, 2024 @ 6:35am 
Not sure but I think you can just create any elf and forcibly put the paladin class on it in EE Keeper.
Skere Kaan Jan 2, 2024 @ 11:04am 
pretty sure they mentioned something like bg1&2 being based on edition 2.5 if that was a thing.

and i've also read that elves in that edition were too "free spirited" or something to be lawful good (which is a requirement for a paladin). at least most elves in these games i remember were either neutral good or, even more common, chaotic good.
Part of the rationale for holding on to class restrictions by race into eds. 1&2 was that all the non-human races had special abilities with no disadvantages, and thus the ability to take any class and achieve any level was considered the human special ability.

There are power balance implications of taking a powerful class like Paladin and pairing it up with racial advantages of non-human races. (And Enhanced Edition provides an example of that with Dorn.) Though I don't think that an Elven Paladin in particular adds a great deal of advantage over a Human Paladin, so I wouldn't worry about it being a game-breaking combination if you wanted to install a mod to allow it.
Centurion Jan 3, 2024 @ 1:40pm 
Originally posted by Skere Kaan:
pretty sure they mentioned something like bg1&2 being based on edition 2.5 if that was a thing.

and i've also read that elves in that edition were too "free spirited" or something to be lawful good (which is a requirement for a paladin). at least most elves in these games i remember were either neutral good or, even more common, chaotic good.

So, 3e had a formal 3.5e revision. I looked up 2e on Archive (https://archive.org/details/advanced-dungeons-dragons-2nd-edition/TSR%20Inc%20-%20AD%26D%202nd%20Edition%20-%20DMGR1%20-%20Campaign%20Sourcebook%20and%20Catacomb%20Guide/) and it is crazy.

What apparently happened is that they released 2e as an updated version of 1e, and somewhat more limited (no half-orcs or kits, for instance.) But then,... in a desire to make things more, well, more, they began issuing 100 page supplements for, well, everything. Suddenly, there is a complete guide to Ranges, Fighters, Paladins, etc. Each specialty mage got its own supplement. Each race got its own. And the kits were added. Not 3 per class, but more like a dozen each. And not aligned with BG1/2. Cavaliers are Fighters, not Paladins. Samurai (with armor) instead of Kensai, And so on. It's wild.

It also seems appropriate to this conversation. There is an entire guide to playable "Humanoids," where not only did they add half-orcs, but also goblins, ogres, etc.
Morkonan Jan 5, 2024 @ 10:28am 
Originally posted by Officer Nice:
Seems quite odd to me. And a bit annoying. :(

It's because those other Races get some extra benefits/abilities that Humans do not get. This is the old AD&D scheme of class/race balancing.
``;..;´´ Jan 5, 2024 @ 2:23pm 
Originally posted by Officer Nice:
And then the Paladin can return in all his glory in BG 3. :D .

Like a real super hero!
itsu Jan 6, 2024 @ 12:44am 
In role-playing context an elf pali seems odd. Paladins are holy warriors based on our modern religions of worshipping one deity, elves are druidic and worship nature or nature-based deities i.e. a certain tree or rock formation etc. This goes back to Tolkein who invented our modern interpretation of elves. Elf monk? Same problem. If there's ever an RPG 'bible' it would be the Silmarilion. It made dwarves short and stocky and gave elves pointy ears. It also made elves nature dwellers and based human religion on our modern religions (temples, cathedrels etc). Why are RPG's always set in Earth equivalent medieval times? Same thing. You can ignore all that and the Japanese have and made their own interpretation with a mish-mash of Tolkeinesque ideas i.e. Final Fantasy etc.
Officer Nice Jan 6, 2024 @ 1:07am 
Originally posted by Wasabi:
In role-playing context an elf pali seems odd. Paladins are holy warriors based on our modern religions of worshipping one deity, elves are druidic and worship nature or nature-based deities i.e. a certain tree or rock formation etc. This goes back to Tolkein who invented our modern interpretation of elves. Elf monk? Same problem. If there's ever an RPG 'bible' it would be the Silmarilion. It made dwarves short and stocky and gave elves pointy ears. It also made elves nature dwellers and based human religion on our modern religions (temples, cathedrels etc). Why are RPG's always set in Earth equivalent medieval times? Same thing. You can ignore all that and the Japanese have and made their own interpretation with a mish-mash of Tolkeinesque ideas i.e. Final Fantasy etc.

I'm not really into the Japanese stuff. It all started with my Blood Elf paladin in WoW. In D&D there are also different kind of elves. Sun elves make pretty good sense as paladins to me. Besides that I would agree with you, Wasabi. :)
It's all true, but then D&D changed it all with 3rd edition, so all this explanations lose senses.

As I said, the real reason lays in the mechanics of the game and in the long transition from races intended as classes to distinct concept. And it is related as Centurion said to the not linear generation in parallel of D&D and AD&D and the various editions, with a package of rules more or less official added through expansions. Only with 3rd edition, making a new rule set from scratch, there was a real new design of the mechanics. And as this was possible all these racial distinctions disappeared. So they should not be so important "in game".

In fact every "in game" explanation is just a justification of something that came out without a real decision with the all rule set, thus with the mechanical part of it. Otherwise rules should allows them, while campaign setting should permit them or not.

So any discussion of "world" reason helps to give explanation to the rule, but the rule came out in other ways.
itsu Jan 6, 2024 @ 7:14am 
Originally posted by Officer Nice:
Originally posted by Wasabi:
In role-playing context an elf pali seems odd. Paladins are holy warriors based on our modern religions of worshipping one deity, elves are druidic and worship nature or nature-based deities i.e. a certain tree or rock formation etc. This goes back to Tolkein who invented our modern interpretation of elves. Elf monk? Same problem. If there's ever an RPG 'bible' it would be the Silmarilion. It made dwarves short and stocky and gave elves pointy ears. It also made elves nature dwellers and based human religion on our modern religions (temples, cathedrels etc). Why are RPG's always set in Earth equivalent medieval times? Same thing. You can ignore all that and the Japanese have and made their own interpretation with a mish-mash of Tolkeinesque ideas i.e. Final Fantasy etc.

I'm not really into the Japanese stuff. It all started with my Blood Elf paladin in WoW. In D&D there are also different kind of elves. Sun elves make pretty good sense as paladins to me. Besides that I would agree with you, Wasabi. :)
I've nearly always played palis (99.99999 times out of 100) :steamfacepalm:, it's my fave and seems only class, so forgive me if I seem a bit rigid in my thinking.

I respect the fact you can play how you want to, especially with a single player RPG combined with mods, who's to tell you otherwise? Right? Also, on the point of the blood elf pali in WOW, I remember in WOW there are also internal combustion engines i.e the halfling mounts. WOW is very 'disney' in its approach to RPGing i.e playable pandas and zombies. But as I said, we're in a time where people feel there shouldn't be barriers. Would I dungeon crawl in an MMO with an elf pali? Nope. I would respectfully decline. The problem is the leap of imagination it takes. For example would you want an elf barbarian class with all it entails i.e beserker mode etc? How about an elf templar? Or a nomadic desert-dwelling elf maybe? A lawful-good aligned elf necromancer anyone? As I said, variety makes things interesting, but some limits should remain, talking in an RPG sense only here. But I respect anyone who plays their way as long as I'm not there to suffer it. lol

But I see where you're coming from Officer Nice, from what I've read from your posts you come across as a very experienced RPGer who has probably done this and seen that and experiments a lot just to keep things fresh and interesting. For comparison I've never played with the dark arts of magic. Forgive me, I'm just a lowly pali in his worn out suit of armour riding his old and tired, but trusty, horse....what would I know?

edit: I forgot to say, the problem with sun elves as palis is that any sun worshipping is considered druidistic as in worshipping nature. Now the way round this would be to make a God representing the sun in another form, like the Romans did for example. But then these would be considered paganistic. Pagans are the sworn enemies of palis. You see the problem? lol Palis are sworn defenders of the "faith" they hunt evil in all its form and slit your throat as punishment for blasphemy. Essentially zealots. You can re-invent and tinker but then you get to final fantasy.
Last edited by itsu; Jan 6, 2024 @ 7:39am
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Date Posted: Jan 1, 2024 @ 8:31am
Posts: 24