Mizhena shouldn't NEED expanding on

[Snschl]

As I've mentioned on the Beamdog forums:

While it's nice that we're getting a well-developed trans character, I don't think expanding on Mizhena's character was necessary. I feel it gives undue legitimacy to the accusations of tokenism, which I personally don't buy.

It reminds me of a Rantasmo video in which he tackles accusations of tokenism levied at BioWare. As he puts it, tokenism is when a significant character is painfully underwritten, compared to his fellow main cast, for the cynical reason of making the work appear to be more diverse.

Saying that a supporting NPC is token makes no sense - supporting characters, by their very nature, lack characterization. A running theme with criticism of Mizhena seems to be that she's considered "out of place," and lacks a justification - an excuse - to be openly trans. These comments imply that LGBT people cannot simply populate the world by default - we can't be background characters, boring filler, local flavor that informs the setting, or part of the fluff. No, an LGBT character is always an outlier, needing a special permission slip from the plot, otherwise the (presumed straight male audience) finds them unbelievable and distracting.

I haven't gotten to the expansion yet (just began the BG campaign again), but what I've seen of Mizhena from videos is perfectly fine. DAI's Krem has a similar role. If Beamdog feels they can make her a more prominent character, by all means, but let it not be to combat perceived tokenism.

[M3chaMike]

She's one of the few npc's given voiced dialogue. In Baldur's Gate, almost any time there is actual voiced dialogue, it's something important. Her words are given weight, but the only thing she says is that she's a transexual. Even if you had not known about the controversy before, it would still feel very out of place.

On top of that, giving a character only ONE character trait, and that character trait only being related to their sexuality, seems to be a disservice to that character, and the people that character is supposedly representing.
Adding more to that character, maybe even giving them their own side-quest, would give credance to the idea of "our sexuality isn't what defines us" which is something I believe in, myself.

That said, this is hardly the controversy people are making it out to be. It's ineloquently wrote in, but it's very easy to just take it in stride. This doesn't even come close to being the stain on the Baldur's Gate legacy some people are making it out to be.

Personally, I'm still enjoying Siege of Dragonspear, even if it's slightly worse than BG1, and miles worse than BG2.

[Dragoonlordz]

I personally would like to see her character more developed though it is not the end of the world to me if was not.

[General Plastro]

Make her an full Companion and quest.

Even if its a "1-day" companion.

[Lexinator]

General Plastro eredeti hozzászólása:

Make her an full Companion.

Even if its a "1-day" companion.

I would actually like her to be a full companion as well. She is already voiced, so take the extra step!

[Luis]

Make her a full recruitable companion! And then add her to Shadows of Amn + ToB

[Lexinator]

Luisfius eredeti hozzászólása:

Make her a full recruitable companion! And then add her to Shadows of Amn + ToB :HappyMask:

Heck yeah!
Seriously, this is a great idea. As I said, she is already voiced, please do this!

Give her a cool back story and quest too, but please remove that BS about making her name out of a bunch of languages. It's nauseating.
Whoever wrote that nonsense needs to be punished.... Like severely. Serious amateur teen fanfic vibe here. The only thing missing is a vampire.

[Snschl]

MechaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

She's one of the few npc's given voiced dialogue. In Baldur's Gate, almost any time there is actual voiced dialogue, it's something important. Her words are given weight, but the only thing she says is that she's a transexual. Even if you had not known about the controversy before, it would still feel very out of place.

Admittedly, a misleading decision, though it only made me think of cut content and possible companion options that didn't make the final version.

MechaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

On top of that, giving a character only ONE character trait, and that character trait only being related to their sexuality, seems to be a disservice to that character, and the people that character is supposedly representing.
Adding more to that character, maybe even giving them their own side-quest, would give credance to the idea of "our sexuality isn't what defines us" which is something I believe in, myself.

Why is that standard applied to a trans character, but not elsewhere? Is she not allowed to be set dressing? Safana was previously defined by her sexuality, and changing that seems to have pissed people off. Why is the bar for existing so much higher for a trans character, when we don't have a problem with one-dimensional paladins, businessmen, villains, subhuman raiders, and countless other character archetypes?

[cirdanx]

Right, who wants a better written charcter in an RPG(!) anyway. Right?

This is exactly what i said yesterday after they announced this. "i don´t buy it" is not an argument, it´s ignorance. If you fail to see why this is bad writing and tokenism just for the sake of it is bad, then you are beyond hope. Read 50 shades of Grey or watch Twilight, that´s more on your level then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Arlen]

This was just one of a myriad of complaints about the game. Unfortunately it is also the one that brought in the culture warriors, especially after a certain moderator sent out a distress signal to Fem Freq and jezebel. That particular tweet got around the internet faster than grease through a goose. Also does not help that the devs attacked a large portion of their consumer base, and attempted to mask the other issues behind the "GG is attacking us and the transphobes are downvoting" fiasco.

Personally, if the issues were just the Joke and this, and not the writing for the whole game, massive gamebreaking bugs, nearly impossible multiplayer etc etc. I would just have waved this whole nonsense away

[General Plastro]

billybobtexan1000 eredeti hozzászólása:

This was just one of a myriad of complaints about the game. Unfortunately it is also the one that brought in the culture warriors, especially after a certain moderator sent out a distress signal to Fem Freq and jezebel. That particular tweet got around the internet faster than grease through a goose. Also does not help that the devs attacked a large portion of their consumer base, and attempted to mask the other issues behind the "GG is attacking us and the transphobes are downvoting" fiasco.

Personally, if the issues were just the Joke and this, and not the writing for the whole game, massive gamebreaking bugs, nearly impossible multiplayer etc etc. I would just have waved this whole nonsense away

On the same boat here, ahoy...

[Larry]

The character was poorly written. If you can't see that then you have very low standards of writing.

The only reason the character is in the game is for the sake of being a transexual in Siege of Dragonspear, the lead writer has stated as much albeit in not such a straightforward tone. She basically said she just wanted to include a trans character for the sake of diversity and if people didn't like it then tough luck.

No one really minds a trans character, it's been in the original games, what people mind is a political agenda and a character with zero personality or background and not an ounce of development. Poorly written.

From everything included, what Beamdog have said, what the lead writer has said, what the actual character is and how the character explains themselves; this is a badly written character that's only purpose to begin with was the sake of being labled a trans character in the game.

This isn't a character who happens to be trans, this is a trans character which is reason enough for anyone proud of their work to change it and make it work from the perspective of being a character first and transexual second.

[Eboreus]

Speaking of me I'm not gonna buy this Add-On - Amber's name is burned for me, and Beamdog itself is on probation, so to speak. Besides that and generally I appreciate that this character is going to be improved. I even think that it's necessary. I just don't believe that Amber is the right person to do it.

[Snschl]

Dr.Larry eredeti hozzászólása:

The character was poorly written. If you can't see that then you have very low standards of writing.

The only reason the character is in the game is for the sake of being a transexual in Siege of Dragonspear, the lead writer has stated as much albeit in not such a straightforward tone. She basically said she just wanted to include a trans character for the sake of diversity and if people didn't like it then tough luck.

No one really minds a trans character, it's been in the original games, what people mind is a political agenda and a character with zero personality or background and not an ounce of development. Poorly written.

From everything included, what Beamdog have said, what the lead writer has said, what the actual character is and how the character explains themselves; this is a badly written character that's only purpose to begin with was the sake of being labled a trans character in the game.

This isn't a character who happens to be trans, this is a trans character which is reason enough for anyone proud of their work to change it and make it work from the perspective of being a character first and transexual second.

Countless other characters in the game have no personality or development. That's why "tokenism" describes including shallow, bland minority stereotypes among a more well-developed main ensemble. It does not extend to every freakin' breathing lifeform in a work of fiction, no matter how marginal their role and relevance to the plot. In fact, the assumption that a LGBT character has to somehow "justify" themselves, as if their existance is suspect otherwise, smacks very subtly of bigotry.

[cirdanx]

General Plastro eredeti hozzászólása:

billybobtexan1000 eredeti hozzászólása:

This was just one of a myriad of complaints about the game. Unfortunately it is also the one that brought in the culture warriors, especially after a certain moderator sent out a distress signal to Fem Freq and jezebel. That particular tweet got around the internet faster than grease through a goose. Also does not help that the devs attacked a large portion of their consumer base, and attempted to mask the other issues behind the "GG is attacking us and the transphobes are downvoting" fiasco.

Personally, if the issues were just the Joke and this, and not the writing for the whole game, massive gamebreaking bugs, nearly impossible multiplayer etc etc. I would just have waved this whole nonsense away

On the same boat here, ahoy...

Amen, though i would still have been angered by the interview, but probably forgotten it after a few hours.

[Larry]

Snschl eredeti hozzászólása:

Countless other characters in the game have no personality or development. That's why "tokenism" describes including shallow, bland minority stereotypes among a more well-developed main ensemble. It does not extend to every freakin' breathing lifeform in a work of fiction, no matter how marginal their role and relevance to the plot. In fact, the assumption that a LGBT character has to somehow "justify" themselves, as if their existance is suspect otherwise, smacks very subtly of bigotry.

Exactly. The whole thing is poorly written. The expansion is a piss poor attempt into Baldur's Gate. This is one of the main complaints everyone has been giving out about. What made Mihenza an exceptional case was the fact the character was literally only there for the sake of being trans in the game. There was no other reason for it and it was clear for all to see. No one can argue against that and if you can't see why people were complaining you're very short sighted.

The expansion isn't good. The writing is sheer amature. The options open to the player are nonexistent. The whole plot is incredibly shallow. It just isn't very good and pales in comparison to any IE game.

And yes, an LGBT character has to justify themselves within context. If a character blurts out "I'm gay" with no reason or nothing to prompt it, it's poor writing. Would you see a straight character blurt out "I'm straight" randomly and consider that good writing? Absolutely not! It never happens the other way around because it shouldn't happen period.

You've simply lost perspective of the real issue: Shoddy writing. You should never treat any character preferentially based on their sexuality, gender or race. In this game it highlights a specific character because they're trans and give zero context or background for it. It's just there.