What is the best party for an evil alignment?

[Sensei1996]

I have finished the game with a good aligned party. Now I want to try evil. What are the best NPC's for the job?

[Tasi]

It is hard to define best, but I would not miss:

• Edwin (lots of spells)
  
• Kagain (his HP regeneration is amazing)
  
• Viconia

Montaron is also very effective.

I generally do not like EE characters but the evil ones (Dorn and Baeloth) are definitely power-gaming character.

[Sensei1996]

Thanks

[Melusca]

Kagain - HP regen, best tank in the game with Gauntlets of Dexterity

Edwin - Best regular mage in the game thanks to his amulet (although IMO Neera is a better mage than him if you know how to abuse Nahals since she can drop level 5 spells with just a level 1 and level 2 spell)

Shar-Teel - She's basically an evil version of Minsc, that can also dual to Thief

Dorn - 19 Str, great immunities

Baeloth - He's a Sorcerer and Sorcerers are amazing, although his low-level spell selection could be better

If you make an Evil Half-Orc Fighter/Cleric and go with those 5 (with Shar-Teel dualled to Thief at level 3) you'll have a pretty good party. The other evil characters don't even come close. Montaron is good, and probably the best thief for an evil party, but the problem is that he comes with Xzar, who isn't a very good mage (being unable to cast Illusion spells really hurts), although you could still send Xzar to melee a bear if you want to get rid of him and keep Montaron. Viconia is incredibly overrated, she has terrible physical stats outside of her Dex, so she's basically a slinger with Cleric spells. Branwen is a better Cleric for evil parties (although she'll complain a lot). Eldoth has awful Dex and you want to give the Dex Gauntlets to Kagain anyway. If you need a Bard take Garrick instead. Tiax has lousy stats and comes too late in the game to be of any use.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Melusca:

Viconia is incredibly overrated, she has terrible physical stats outside of her Dex, so she's basically a slinger with Cleric spells.

Your suggestion of Shar-Teel and in the same time criticism of Viconia does not make sense to me. Both of them have some nice features (strength and dexterity for Shar-Teel and dexterity and magic resistance for Viconia) but both of them shares low constitution (=no bonus HP).
Moreover, Shar-Teel is front-line character while Viconia is not... I like Shar-Teel but I would not say she belongs to best evil characters. There are better front-line characters (Kagain, Dorn) while Viconia remains best evil cleric in the game.

Overrated? You probable mean in BG2 (lots of players like romancing her).

Single-class clerics may not be the strongest builds in the BG trilogy, but in BG1 they are very good (which is not the case of BG2).

[Melusca]

Shar-Teel doesn't have to melee all the time, and she's pretty good with bows, since her Str means she can use Composite Bows. For a ranged character, Con is less relevant than for a front-liner. If you give her a Potion of Fortitude, she gets the bonus Fighter HP. Viconia just has a Cleric Con bonus, a Cleric THACO, can't go beyond basic Proficiency and doesn't even get the nice extra abilities Branwen has. I agree that her Magic Resistance is good, but there are also potions for that.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Melusca:

Shar-Teel doesn't have to melee all the time, and she's pretty good with bows, since her Str means she can use Composite Bows.

Yes, she is decent with bows but she does not start with any proficiency with bows and strength bonus does not affect bows damage (only is requirement for some bows) so it feels wasted. Players has to decide if they want to invest proficiency points further to melee weapons or build her as range character. Unfortunately these two paths are in conflict.

Originally posted by Melusca:

If you give her a Potion of Fortitude, she gets the bonus Fighter HP. Viconia just has a Cleric Con bonus...

If Shar-Teel has bad stats and you say she belongs to group of the best evil characters (saying she can drink potions) you should not criticize another as incredibly overrated for bad stats which can be raised with potions as well. Moreover Viconia can cast Draw Upon Holy Might so raise her stats easier.
So it is not problem of her stats (because you have said it can be raised) but with her class? Clerics does not gain more HP for higher constitution score. Well, true: clerics does not have that many HP but they have spells.

Originally posted by Melusca:

...a Cleric THACO, can't go beyond basic Proficiency...

She is cleric. Clerics are spellcasters. I would not expect her to have same THAC0. I would expect from her to have enough of useful spells (which she has). Moreover she can be one of the best tanks in the game (thanks to high dexterity, ability to wear best armors, magic resistance and easy to raise constitution). It is like saying that Shar-Teel cannot cast spells... well, true.

Going with Shar-Teel beyond basic proficiency with bows is possible but because of her starting proficiencies it is far from automatic. Moreover with your suggestion of:

Originally posted by Melusca:

Shar-Teel dualled to Thief at level 3

it is even further from this goal - slower proficiency advance. She will become really good with backstab so I would rather stay with her long swords. But I agree with you - she becomes very good thief/backstabber.

Originally posted by Melusca:

and doesn't even get the nice extra abilities Branwen has.

Which extra abilities? Spiritual Hammer? It is not bad but clerics are not good dps character so it does not help that much. Moreover Viconia can cast it also – it will just consume her one 2nd level spell (Branwen has one Spiritual Hammer for free). Clerics can be very good at tanking and spellcasting but are not very effective DPS fighters (mostly because of low number of attacks). You have already mentioned:

Originally posted by Melusca:

can't go beyond basic Proficiency

and same applies to Branwen

[Melusca]

Originally posted by Tasi:

Yes, she is decent with bows but she does not start with any proficiency with bows and strength bonus does not affect bows damage (only is requirement for some bows) so it feels wasted. Players has to decide if they want to invest proficiency points further to melee weapons or build her as range character. Unfortunately these two paths are in conflict.

I agree that starting with no proficiency in bows doesn't help, but you can still send her to melee (as long as she doesn't do the tanking, but Kagain's here for that) until level 3, then switch to bows. Ranged + melee on a character isn't really conflicting, Minsc and Kivan are built in the exact same way (hence why I said "she's an evil version of Minsc") and they are very polyvalent - you clear the trash and snipe casters with bows, then move into melee range to help the tank. She can do the same.

Originally posted by Tasi:

She is cleric. Clerics are spellcasters. I would not expect her to have same THAC0. I would expect from her to have enough of useful spells (which she has). Moreover she can be one of the best tanks in the game (thanks to high dexterity, ability to wear best armors, magic resistance and easy to raise constitution).

With her 10 Str she'll need the Gauntlets of Ogre Power or to quaff a Strength Potion every 5 steps to wear Full Plate without going into snail mode. With a few potions she can tank, sure, but Kagain can tank and deal some major pain with no downtime.

Originally posted by Tasi:

Which extra abilities? Spiritual Hammer? It is not bad but clerics are not good dps character so it does not help that much.

In the EE she's a Cleric of Tempus so she has an extra spell that raises her Str to 18/00 (can't remember the name), and Chaos of Battle (buffs the whole party while debuffing all the enemies). Chaos is very strong - it can turn a difficult battle into a walk in the park, although you can't control which buff you get.

As you said yourself, "Clerics are casters", and Branwen has more options in that regard than Viconia. I'm not saying she's a bad character, just that people tend to look at that 19 Dex and 50 Mag Res and overlook the 10 Str and 1 APR.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Melusca:

I agree that starting with no proficiency in bows doesn't help, but you can still send her to melee (as long as she doesn't do the tanking, but Kagain's here for that) until level 3, then switch to bows.

You have commented terrible physical stats of Viconia while you have no problem with the same for Shar-Teel. I have never said Shar-Teel is bad (I said: “I like Shar-Teel but I would not say she belongs to best evil characters.”). She is just not as good as Kagain or Dorn. On the other hand Viconia does not have that great competitors.

Originally posted by Melusca:

Ranged + melee on a character isn't really conflicting…

I have said:

Originally posted by Tasi:

Players has to decide if they want to invest proficiency points further to melee weapons or build her as range character. Unfortunately these two paths are in conflict.

Shar-Teel will start with following proficiencies:

• Long Sword +
  
• Dagger +
  
• Two-Weapon Style ++

and she will get (if continuing as warrior) another 2 proficiency points. She cannot be specialized (2 pips = bonus APR) in both long swords and bows. You have to choose. Yes, you can still use bows or even hammers if you wish so. It does not change the fact that she cannot have bonus APR (attack(s) per round) with both of these. These two are in conflict.

Originally posted by Melusca:

… Minsc and Kivan are built in the exact same way (hence why I said "she's an evil version of Minsc") and they are very polyvalent - you clear the trash and snipe casters with bows, then move into melee range to help the tank. She can do the same.

No, they are not. Both Kivan and Minsc starts (or can easily reach) specialization (=bonus APR) with both melee and ranged weapon. Shar-Teel cannot. I consider Shar-Teel worse than Kivan (stats & proficiencies) or Minsc (proficiencies and special ability). The only thing where I would say she is worth of considering is dualing her to thief (as you have suggested) but I would stay with long swords.

Originally posted by Melusca:

With her 10 Str she'll need the Gauntlets of Ogre Power or to quaff a Strength Potion every 5 steps to wear Full Plate without going into snail mode.

Viconia has low strength but it is false to exaggerate as you have done here. You have mentioned Full Plate Armor (70 lb) which is exactly her weight allowance while I (and I believe that the same does everyone else) would never consider to use with her anything else then Ankheg Plate Mail (25 lb).

Originally posted by Melusca:

With a few potions she can tank, sure, but Kagain can tank and deal some major pain with no downtime.

I guess Viconia and Shar-Teel are almost equal here (except Viconia has better AC and Shar-Teel higher HP). On the other hand Viconia can drink potion and tank if needed even when she is not front-line character (Shar-Teel is front-line).
“Few potions”? Again – you are exaggerating. One Potion of Fortitude (you are the one who started with potions, not me).

Originally posted by Melusca:

In the EE she's a Cleric of Tempus so she has an extra spell that raises her Str to 18/00 (can't remember the name), and Chaos of Battle (buffs the whole party while debuffing all the enemies). Chaos is very strong - it can turn a difficult battle into a walk in the park, although you can't control which buff you get.

I did not know that. I have to check. That would make her worth of considering.

Originally posted by Melusca:

As you said yourself, "Clerics are casters", and Branwen has more options in that regard than Viconia. I'm not saying she's a bad character, just that people tend to look at that 19 Dex and 50 Mag Res and overlook the 10 Str and 1 APR.

Branwen has some pros and cons. Have to check that new ability of hers but she will still have the very same 1 APR as any other cleric so she will not become melee DPS anyway so her higher strength has the biggest impact in weight allowance. If you really want to fight with either of them you will probably cast 2nd level arcane spell Strength (Viconia’s strength is the easiest stat to fix) while her high dexterity still holds her and even more her magic resistance.

[Tasi]

Originally posted by Melusca:

although IMO Neera is a better mage than him if you know how to abuse Nahals since she can drop level 5 spells with just a level 1 and level 2 spell

I have slightly different experience with Neera. She is really good companion if you appreciate moments of laugh when something unexpected happened to either you or your enemies. I have enjoyed that for some time. On the other hand I am not big fan of frequent saving (and loading) the game. With Neera it can happen anytime. Any spell has 5% probability of Wild Surge. While it does not seem much it was still enough to keep me from using her normally as I would play other mages. Just knowing that casting any (even the most basic spells) could end very badly and I would need to load old save was enough to hesitate casting any spell with her.

With Nahal's Reckless Dweomer it always Wild Surge.
You will have 1% probability of success plus additional bonuses:

• Neera's level ( when casting other normally memorized spells and have random 5% Wild Surges you do not have this bonus - so their effect is usually even worse!)
  
• +15% if Neera casted 2nd level Chaos Shield (2nd level spell) in preparation (so it is not 5th level spell for 1st level Dweomer... and it takes time in combat)
  
• +25% if Neera casted 2nd level Improved Chaos Shield (7th level spell!) in preparation

So your chance of success is (in %) =

 1 + Neera's Level (+15% for Chaos Shield) 

(I did not counted potential +25% from 7th level spell which you cannot cast in BG1)

If you assume Neera is already on her max (9th) level then you will have 10% probability of success (or 10+15=25% probability if you have casted Chaos Shield before). That is not much...
So what will happen in these 75% (or 90%) cases? Check the table:
Baldur's Gate Wiki [baldursgate.fandom.com]

It can be harmless, hilarious, devastating for anyone including your party or you could even lose all money...

So back to yours:

Originally posted by Melusca:

although IMO Neera is a better mage than him if you know how to abuse Nahals since she can drop level 5 spells with just a level 1 and level 2 spell

I would rather say: If you do not mind save-scumming Neera can be very powerful spellcaster (and you will probably need to save-load a lot).
Better then Edwin? Edwin has more spells and he never fails casting any of them. From my perspective 25% success rate is far from useful. I consider Neera slightly above Rasaad in terms of character effectiveness.
Note: that is completely different in BG2 where she has higher level and she will get some amazing magic items to improve the odds - there Nahal's Reckless Dweomer can be truly abused.

[Melusca]

Yeah obviously when I said "abusing Nahals" it meant "cast Chaos Shield and reload till you get the desired result". Anyone who has played Neera knows she can wipe your party at random. This is why I said Edwin is the best "regular" mage since you don't have to reload so often with him. But you can't Cloudkill entire maps with a level 1 Edwin, while Neera technically can.

"Slightly above Rasaad" XD. At least Neera can use wands if you don't want to risk a surge, while Rasaad can just hope to sling kobolds to death. Any wand user is leagues above Rasaad in BG1 :)

[Melusca]

I'm not really gonna continue with the whole Shar-Teel VS Viconia thing, but I still wanted to comment about this:

Originally posted by Tasi:

Shar-Teel will start with following proficiencies:

• Long Sword +
  
• Dagger +
  
• Two-Weapon Style ++

and she will get (if continuing as warrior) another 2 proficiency points. She cannot be specialized (2 pips = bonus APR) in both long swords and bows. You have to choose. Yes, you can still use bows or even hammers if you wish so. It does not change the fact that she cannot have bonus APR (attack(s) per round) with both of these. These two are in conflict.

She can't specialize in both if she stays a Fighter, but if you dual her to a Thief she gets to Longsword ++ at Fighter 3, Longbows + at Thief 1, Longbows ++ at Thief 4 and can even reach 3 points in either of them at Thief 8.

Edit: Shortbows not Longbows, since Thieves cannot use Longbows (I played too many bards, and they can). So Composites are kinda out of the equation for a Fighter > Thief, but she can still reach bonus APR with Shortbows.

[red255]

Originally posted by Sensei:

I have finished the game with a good aligned party. Now I want to try evil. What are the best NPC's for the job?

Uh.

So your main character is what? a warrior? some sort of dual class?

Evil characters are like Dorn. Kagain, Edwin, Xzar, Montaron, Eldoth, Shar teel, Tiax, VIconica, and the black pits guy.

Kagain is a high Con fighter, easily regenerating HP. Viconica is a cleric you get early.
Shar Teel makes a decent thief. Dorn has a quest

so uh,

I guess, MC some sort of tank Beserker.
Kagain
Dorn
Viconica
Baeloth,
Shar Teel dualed to thief.

I think.

"Viconia has low strength but it is false to exaggerate as you have done here. You have mentioned Full Plate Armor (70 lb) which is exactly her weight allowance while I (and I believe that the same does everyone else) would never consider to use with her anything else then Ankheg Plate Mail (25 lb)."

I generally have them wear the falleron's plate which is basically just platemail +1 that weighs 20 lbs. but yeah there are two items that raise strength, the gloves and the belt

[Tasi]

Originally posted by red255:

"Viconia has low strength but it is false to exaggerate as you have done here. You have mentioned Full Plate Armor (70 lb) which is exactly her weight allowance while I (and I believe that the same does everyone else) would never consider to use with her anything else then Ankheg Plate Mail (25 lb)."

I generally have them wear the falleron's plate which is basically just platemail +1 that weighs 20 lbs. but yeah there are two items that raise strength, the gloves and the belt

I guess it will do the job.
I usually combine non-magic armor with rings to get not only better armor bonus but also bonus to saves (which magic armors do not give).

[red255]

as my cleric doesnt need to be hasted, a ring of free action on the cleric and chaotic commands and its passing almost all relative save checks with no issues. other things might require a potion of mirror eyes or something but I'm not trusting my cleric to save rolls.

especially not at the lower levels. give it a few castings of remove paralysis when the rest of my party gets held by creepy crawlies sure.

[Gustuv Wynd]

The trouble is there is really no combat ready cleric in the game...for good or evil. Since EE lets me now...I will always roll up a half orc cleric/thief along with my main character. I roll play it as they are a man servant of sorts. You could play one as your main I suppose...but I find the class rather lack luster to play.

That's the main issue with Viconia...she has some good aspects, but her primary stat of wisdom is on the low side...and she has a higher intelligence than wisdom which make my face twitch. However...all the divine casters have 15 wisdom...Jaheria has 14 I think. You get fighters, thieves, and wizards all over the place with high or maxed primary stats, but clerics get the shaft. Might be why there are three tomes of understanding, but it seems such a waste to burn them on characters that won't benefit from them in BG2...and a waste to burn THREE tomes only get up to a 18.


So my favorite party to have in the 0-12 reputation range is:

MC:
A fighter/druid is what I often roll in these cases...but can be anything

Custom Party member:
Half Orc cleric/theif...specialized in sneaking as his 19 strength makes for a good back stabber with a staff. As sneaking gets high with help from items I will start putting points into laying traps and removing traps.

Xzar:
...best over all stats for a mage in the game. Decent strength so he can be a bit of a pack mule. Thief level dex makes him good with darts or slings. He's a mage so who cares about con, but he can equip the claw of kazgaroth with no penalty to health. His wisdom is high so he will get a bonus to lore and can dual to a decent cleric with one tome if you want...though I typically don't. Edwin might have more spells per day (you can't roll a better mage in terms of spells per day), but I find my self resting to heal before he uses all his spells any way...so I'd rather have Xzar chucking stones since a mage isn't casting spells every round most of the time. Plus Xzar is pretty entertaining in my opinion.

Kagain:
Nice tank...give him the dex gloves and have Rasaad in the party long enough to get the str 19/int 6 belt and toss that on him...probably the best fighter in the game at that point. I usually cheat and EE keeper his proficiencies to focus on long swords since there aren't really any good axes in BG1.

Shar-Teel:
Her low con is scary, but she gets the same bonus health as Dorn with his 14 con...zero. I do typically cheat and use EE keeper to clean up her weapon proficenicies because I don't think a warrior of her caliber would train a little in long swords and a little daggers...but she can be good left like that too. I typically have her using two handed swords so she can attack at the same time as Kagain in tight spaces even though two weapons would be more damage. Sometimes I specialize her in long bows if I am going more front line fighter with the MC.

Montaron:
I have him running a short bow or cross bow and put his thief skills into trap removal and lock picking. Cast invisibility on him and he can go in for a good back stab too.


This is probably my favorite party for BG1 of any type of run through. Though it sucks that we lose all these characters in SoD and BG2. :(