Greater Werewolf needs rebalancing

[House of Rahl]

The Greater Werewolf seems to be near unkillable. its immune to both +1 and +2 weapons. its even immune to +3 weapons: including twinkle and the moonsword. the only weapons ive found that can hit it is the burning earth, kondar, werebane, and the sword of balduran. so it looks like it requires a +4 weapon to hit this enemy.... in bg1.... cmon.

on a side note the burning earth really shouldnt count as a +4 against a werewolf. its only +4 vs undead. it should count as +2 vs regenerating creatures.

[wendigo211]

If you have a mage (or two) who can spam magic missiles he should drop fairly quickly. It is a little unfair because of how the weapon proficiencies changed in the EE. Bastard Swords and Longswords used to both be considered large swords, so you probably had someone who could use Kondar or the Sword of Balduran prior to the EE. These days unless you specced someone in Bastard Swords or Daggers you're probably going to have to win that fight through magic alone. I guess it gives Ajantis a chance to be useful.

That said, Oil of Speed (or Haste), Potion of _______ Giant Strength and a Potion of Heroism should let you pound on him whether you're proficient in the weapon or not.

[Godsarm]

I get the complaint, it can't be hit by The Worlds Edge +3 Two-Handed Sword from Durlag's Tower either and I agree it shouldn't take damage from The Burning Earth. And, you don't even get the Sword of Balduran until you kill the first Greater Werewolf, I've never tried sneaking a Thief in to steal it before the battle since we're all buffed up and I don't want to waste the time. I don't know if it's ever been reported.

Are you looking for ways to defeat it or have you already figured it out?

[biogoo]

You can loot chests and equip weapons in battle.

Hold monster works well on greater werewolves. Call woodlang being can cast this spell as well if you dont have it yourself.

[AlexMBrennan]

its immune to both +1 and +2 weapons. its even immune to +3 weapons: including twinkle and the moonsword. the only weapons ive found that can hit it is the burning earth, kondar, werebane, and the sword of balduran. so it looks like it requires a +4 weapon to hit this enemy.... in bg1.... cmon.
on a side note the burning earth really shouldnt count as a +4 against a werewolf. its only +4 vs undead. it should count as +2 vs regenerating creatures.

How can you possibly conclude that the monster is immune to +3 weapons after you bring up that it can be hit by the +1/+3 kondar? That should have been an immediate red flag that your theory is wrong.

On a more serious note, you are overanalyzing this - the greater wolfware can only be hurt by silver weapons of which there are five to be found in the entire game (the four you listed plus the bastard sword you get from Dorn's quest)

Ultimately this is because BG1 didn't use enchantment levels the way you expect from BG2 - you simply had enemies that can be hurt by all weapons, enemies that can only be hurt by magic weapons, and enemies that can only be hurt by silver weapons.

Higher enchantment numbers helped you hit the enemy but did not determine which enemies can be hit.

I don't know if it's ever been reported.

It is working exactly as intended. The creature has the flag to require a silver weapon, and there are 5 silver weapons. Why do you think that this is a bug?

[WinningOne]

Originally posted by Richard Rahl:

The Greater Werewolf seems to be near unkillable. its immune to both +1 and +2 weapons. its even immune to +3 weapons: including twinkle and the moonsword. the only weapons ive found that can hit it is the burning earth, kondar, werebane, and the sword of balduran. so it looks like it requires a +4 weapon to hit this enemy.... in bg1.... cmon.

on a side note the burning earth really shouldnt count as a +4 against a werewolf. its only +4 vs undead. it should count as +2 vs regenerating creatures.

Here is a helpful source which will answer all of your questions about defeating enemies in Baldur's Gate. For your convenience I have targeted it to the monster you mentioned in your post. I use it often :) As Alex M Brennan mentioned the weapons which work do so because they are made of silver.

https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Greater_Wolfwere

[House of Rahl]

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

How can you possibly conclude that the monster is immune to +3 weapons after you bring up that it can be hit by the +1/+3 kondar? That should have been an immediate red flag that your theory is wrong.

On a more serious note, you are overanalyzing this - the greater wolfware can only be hurt by silver weapons of which there are five to be found in the entire game (the four you listed plus the bastard sword you get from Dorn's quest)

Ultimately this is because BG1 didn't use enchantment levels the way you expect from BG2 - you simply had enemies that can be hurt by all weapons, enemies that can only be hurt by magic weapons, and enemies that can only be hurt by silver weapons.

kondar isnt a native +3. so far as i know the bonus thaco values vs certain creature types doesnt change its enchantment level or w/e its called. so from my understanding of baldurs gate burning earth is a +1 weapon for purposes of overcoming weapon immunities no matter what it has. it however gets more thaco and dmg vs certain creatures but if their immune to +1 weapons it still does nothing.

as for it requiring silver weapons id love to know where that comes from. baldurs sword is made from gold. the burning earth and kondar say nothing about silver in their descriptions. even the werebane dagger thats colored a greyish/silver doesnt mention silver in the description.

as for bringing it down i was able to stun lock it with wands of paralysis and just hand out the 4 weapons i had to random chars to hit it. magic wouldnt be viable since im playing on legacy of baal mode. even if i had a party of mages they'd run outa spells before they could down the near 300ish hp! my single swash thief smacking the stunned wolf for around 20ish dmg per round with burning earth couldnt even overcome its natural hp regeneration rate.


just for giggles here are its stats
Level: 23
HP: 278
AC: -13
THACO: -2
Damage: 1d12+7 (8-19)
4 attacks per round
50% res to all elemental dmg

its regen rate in the original game wasnt so bad so a battle of attrition was possible and its health was so much lower you could prolly take out a huge chunk with a single skull trap. in the ee version its hp regen rate is many times higher and makes the boss neigh unkillable without using some cheesy stun locking.

[red255]

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

Why do you think that this is a bug?

It comes from an era of DnD with absurd rulesets. looking at Kondar, and the other weapons theres no way to tell these specific 5 weapons are silver

Kondar
Burning Edge
Werebane
Albruin
Sword of Balduran.

I mean sure they tend to have +damage to shapeshifters on them, but if you are going to have a mechanic can only be damaged by silver weapons, you should at least label the weapons that can damage them.

Thats the bug/design oversight. its a game mechanic thats SPECIFIC to greater were wolves. and it FEELS like the other game mechanic where you have enemies that need a certain +X to hit.

but its not +X weapons its silver, which is just obsure.

if you drop the game difficulty down to below Core, you should be able to hit them with +2 weapons I think.

[wendigo211]

I don't think it's in keeping with the 2nd Ed. rules. IIRC, material based DR didn't really become a thing until 3rd edition. Prior to that, anything that required a special material to damage could also be hurt by a magic weapon of the appropriate enchantment level. E.g. you didn't need a silver magic weapon to hurt a werewolf, either a silver weapon or a magic weapon would do.

I do recall that the <animal>weres, were more powerful than their were<animal> counterparts, but I don't think the rules for what you needed to hit them changed much.

[House of Rahl]

if it helps the sword of baldur states ...

Gold weapons are not known to be useful in combat, but legends say that only weapons forged of gold can harm such dread creatures as the loup garou.

the sword goes on to have a +4 vs lycan in the dmg and thaco lines. im guna go out on a limb and say loup garou = lycan. if so then this description is suggesting ONLY gold works vs werewolfs. i dont know of anywhere in the game it mentioning silver being needed for werewolfs/lycans/loup whatevers. and this weapon isnt really offered prior to the first greater werewolf battle it would even be needed for. pretty open to being proven wrong about the gold and silver though.

even if they keep the you need one of these 5 weapons to hurt it, the increased hp regen rate from i think 5 per round (6 sec) up to the 30 per round in ee gives the greater werewolf such a huge regeneration rate boost that the xp capped characters cant easily compete with. if you throw in legacy of baal stat buffs i doubt even a party of 5 straight fighters could hit the things ac often enough to overcome its regen rate assuming each had one of the above mentioned 5 weapons. if were talking about a player that goes in without those specific weapons and only has access to the sword of balduran on the back table they wont even be able to generate enough dmg with it to overcome the regen rate. the sword of baldur does 2d4+4 (6-12 +str) even in the hands of a max level fighter hitting twice per round automatically due to the wolf being stunned you wouldnt match 30hp per round. and if that was your only weapon your stuck even if you cheese hold the boss. if the boss isnt stun locked for luls and you have to deal with hit/miss probability you havent a prayer.

[WinningOne]

Originally posted by Richard Rahl:

if it helps the sword of baldur states ...

Gold weapons are not known to be useful in combat, but legends say that only weapons forged of gold can harm such dread creatures as the loup garou.

the sword goes on to have a +4 vs lycan in the dmg and thaco lines. im guna go out on a limb and say loup garou = lycan. if so then this description is suggesting ONLY gold works vs werewolfs. i dont know of anywhere in the game it mentioning silver being needed for werewolfs/lycans/loup whatevers. and this weapon isnt really offered prior to the first greater werewolf battle it would even be needed for. pretty open to being proven wrong about the gold and silver though.

even if they keep the you need one of these 5 weapons to hurt it, the increased hp regen rate from i think 5 per round (6 sec) up to the 30 per round in ee gives the greater werewolf such a huge regeneration rate boost that the xp capped characters cant easily compete with. if you throw in legacy of baal stat buffs i doubt even a party of 5 straight fighters could hit the things ac often enough to overcome its regen rate assuming each had one of the above mentioned 5 weapons. if were talking about a player that goes in without those specific weapons and only has access to the sword of balduran on the back table they wont even be able to generate enough dmg with it to overcome the regen rate. the sword of baldur does 2d4+4 (6-12 +str) even in the hands of a max level fighter hitting twice per round automatically due to the wolf being stunned you wouldnt match 30hp per round. and if that was your only weapon your stuck even if you cheese hold the boss. if the boss isnt stun locked for luls and you have to deal with hit/miss probability you havent a prayer.

If you read through that link I left (including the comments), you'll see there are plenty of strategies for killing him even for solo players.You are right though, a full party of only fighters would probably have a difficult time killing him.

[AlexMBrennan]

as for it requiring silver weapons id love to know where that comes from.

You can look at the item tags in Nearinfinity if you don't believe me. The greater wolfwere needs to be hit with "cold iron" or "silver" weapons, and the 5 weapons mentioned above have those qualifiers.

I guess you can argue that this information isn't communicated very well or at all but that is how the games work in general - e.g. you are never explicitly told that you need +3 weapons to hit Belhifet because the games expect you to know that (presumably to encourage you to buy the strategy guide?), or to work it out by trial and error.

It doesn't make sense to argue that this one instance of the player not being explicitly told about enemy abilities is bug.

[House of Rahl]

it is if you need "silver" but have no means of figuring out what is silver without pulling up the base code directly. how many times have you bought a new game and pulled up the script to read line by line for days or weeks or even months to learn all the built in mechanics?

also the sword of balduran says you need gold not silver. thats contradictory. if that aint a "bug" im not sure what in your mind would qualify.

[Giraffasaur]

Originally posted by Richard Rahl:

it is if you need "silver" but have no means of figuring out what is silver without pulling up the base code directly. how many times have you bought a new game and pulled up the script to read line by line for days or weeks or even months to learn all the built in mechanics?

also the sword of balduran says you need gold not silver. thats contradictory. if that aint a "bug" im not sure what in your mind would qualify.

No, it doesn't say you need gold and not silver. It just says the sword is made of gold, and explains why the sword is rather useless against anything other than lycanthopes.

And lol if you honestly think someone has to dig in the game files to understand how to use the weapons that say +X damage to lycanthopes directly on their damage stats.

[House of Rahl]

"Gold weapons are not known to be useful in combat, but legends say that only weapons forged of gold can harm such dread creatures as the loup garou." ~sword of balduran

what part of "only weapons forged of gold" is confusing you?

[Giraffasaur]

Originally posted by Richard Rahl:

what part of "only weapons forged of gold" is confusing you?

"but legends say"