Legacy of Bhaal difficulty w party of 6

[Icedfate]

TPW by the rats in Reevor's storeroom. . . nuff said.


edit : changed the title to "Legacy of Bhaal"

[𝔜𝔲𝔢]

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

as for killing drizzt

how the ♥♥♥♥ do you do that?

If you don't mind exploiting that encounter, just let the gnolls take care of Drizzt and loot his stuff afterwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08jyW-RVqk4

Otherwise ... good luck, you're probably going to need it :D

[Icedfate]

Originally posted by Kiryan:

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

as for killing drizzt

how the ♥♥♥♥ do you do that?

If you don't mind exploiting that encounter, just let the gnolls take care of Drizzt and loot his stuff afterwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08jyW-RVqk4

Otherwise ... good luck, you're probably going to need it :D

oh, I see. it's so obvious, I dunno why I didn't think of that considering its the same exploit I used on mutamin and his basilisks...

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

@Kiryan

Thanks for sharing that. What an embarrassing bug in the combat engine! I only knew the old cheesy way of attacking Drizzt ranged from the opposite side of the lake and exploiting a path-finding weakness.

[Icedfate]

of course I read that if you kill him in bg1, he will attack you on sight in bg2. . . but last time I played bg2, I fought him anyway for the challenge and the loot, because he's actually possible to beat legit in bg2 despite having his friends to help.

[𝔜𝔲𝔢]

@D'amarr:
Yeah, I tried some of the older exploits as well in my LoB playthrough and they didn't work for me >.< (good job fixing those, Beamdog). Stumbled upon the bug when I was running around cursing Drizzt for not handing over his armor ;)

@FeMaiden:
Funny enough, in my BG II LoB game I ran into a bug where Drizzt simply refused to do anything (besides healing himself O_o ) and just watched his friends getting slaughtered. I think he got mesmerized by the pair of gorgeous icebears I had summoned right in front of him to keep him busy. Nicely done, bears! (^_^)

[Tyler Durden]

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

I've seen one person say that you can wait for it to rain and hope lightning strikes him, but wtf, what are the chances of that?

I have played this game countless times and not once has that happened. The only thing remotely like it is the spell Call Lightning.

Originally posted by fauxpas:

That's just it though LoB isn't really "hard", just boring.

I have been wondering myself how LoB mode would be and that sums it up perfectly. There is hard, and there is ridiculous. Having rats with 40 HP where you can only inflict 1 point of damage is ridiculous. It's not challenging. It's not fun. It just tests your patience and only serves those that want to say to themselves, "I beat the game on LoB."

Glad I just decided to play on insanity, that's a good challenge enough there without feeling cheap.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by Tyler Durden:

Having rats with 40 HP where you can only inflict 1 point of damage is ridiculous.

There is no requirement to fight those rats. They are an exception, an optional fight that doesn't even give a worthwhile amount of XP.

[Tyler Durden]

I am just saying that as an example. From what I've read a lot of fights are tediously drawn out like that.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Understood, but those rats are a bad example, because they are a rare special case, an oversight where the simple LOB mode adjustment of stats breaks badly.

In general, HP of the enemies is increased by factor 3 plus 80, so it matters more when you attack someone and whether you are able to hit/damage reliably, because enemy AC is improved, too. Not only will enemiesl survive for a longer time due to higher HP. They also come with increased APR, THAC0 and better ST, so jumping into the fray with a single poorly equipped fighter means you most certainly will need to give lots of support and potions.

As pointed out in comment #9 in this topic, some people will believe the only way to survive is to do lots of kiting, but that is not everyone's cup of tea. Finding out how to get a lot of XP with the least effort and low risk is what makes LOB playable. Flee from combat as soon as you notice difficulties, wander off to some other area for something easier, return later.

And, of course, it's still possible to import characters at the start of the game. Dunno whether that's another oversight, but it should make a LOB mode playthrough a bit easier.

[Icedfate]

I'm pretty sure that its not just (hp * 3) + 80. I think all the enemies have actually had their HD (hit dice) increased. Hit dice is 2e's language for monster level. so an 11 HD monster is a like a level 11 monster. 1 HD is equivalent to 8 hp. so they basically added 10 to every monster level.

this is why in LoB, sleep doesn't work, on anything. becaue it only works on 4 HD and below and everything has at least 11 HD.

the reason I make this distinction is because I noticed the mages are casting spells at a super high level. like the mage in the carnival, I'm pretty sure he is only level 5 in core rules, but in LoB, when he hits you with melf's acid arrow, it continues to burn for 5 rounds (this is in additon to the fact he does double damage with each hit) and he would have to be at least level 15 since it only burns for 1 additional round per 3 caster levels.

so in addition to having a +6 to saving throws, the enemies also have the saving throws of a creature 10 levels above themselves, so basically, no spell you cast is gonna work on anything unless they roll a natural 1.

they make the game harder by taking away all your tactical options. spells don't work. melee doesn't work, ranged doesn't work.
only kiting tactics work and those won't work againstanything that has ranged combat.

I'm watching a youtuber play through LoB and they obviously know their way around the game but they are having a lot of frustration and tedium with 1 melee guy and 5 ranged and the melee guy just runs in circles letting the monsters chase while everyone else shoots it.

it's gimmicky and lame but it's the only way to survive.

someone earlier in this thread claims to have beaten durlag's tower on LoB and I have no idea how that's even possible.


on a side note, I did notice something interesting, in options there's an option to turn off "monster increased damage in higher difficulty". so if I really want the achievment that badly, I could try LoB with the extra damaage turned off.

there's also the possibility I read somewhere that I can import a max level BG2 character into BG1 but I haven't tried it.

[𝔜𝔲𝔢]

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

... so basically, no spell you cast is gonna work on anything unless they roll a natural 1.

Nah. While spells like sleep are pretty much useless, other spells still work rather well. For me, "Hold Person" became the most important spell during most of the game and while it didn't work as good as on lower difficulties, it still got the job done. Plus, you can always use spells like "Greater Malison" (works great in SoD) to lower the enemy saving throws.

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

only kiting tactics work and those won't work againstanything that has ranged combat.

I'm watching a youtuber play through LoB and they obviously know their way around the game [...]

Maybe that youtuber should try a couple of different tactics?
As someone who managed to finish BG I + SoD + BG II on LoB without having to cheese it all that much, I can assure you that you don't have to kite through the whole game. It's useful for some of the harder enemies you run into at the beginning (bears -.- ), but it's not necessary for most of the encounters if you know what you're doing.

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

someone earlier in this thread claims to have beaten durlag's tower on LoB and I have no idea how that's even possible.

It's not that hard. The most annoying thing about the tower are the traps (some of them hitting for 100+ damage), so don't bother going there without a good thief and lots of thief-potions to increase his trap finding ability.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

I'm pretty sure that its not just (hp * 3) + 80. I think all the enemies have actually had their HD (hit dice) increased.

Could be true, but I don't claim to be an expert on this and have only fetched a few details from topics such as:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/48271/legacy-of-bhaal
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/54970/honest-discussion-about-legacy-of-bhaal

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

so in addition to having a +6 to saving throws, the enemies also have the saving throws of a creature 10 levels above themselves, so basically, no spell you cast is gonna work on anything unless they roll a natural 1.

That's an exaggeration. Some of my popular spells (such as Blindness, Hold Person) have worked in my playthroughs as mentioned in the topic linked earlier.

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

they make the game harder by taking away all your tactical options. spells don't work. melee doesn't work, ranged doesn't work.
only kiting tactics work and those won't work againstanything that has ranged combat.

"Only kiting tactics work" is an exaggeration, too. The notes I've posted about my LOB playthrough could have been more detailed (also the more brief ones about BG2), but only if you insist on killing everyone early you may need to kite. If you avoid difficult fights and return later, you don't need to do kiting. All-in support with divine/arcane magic and abilities, potions, summons, wands, resting, rinse repeat. Only a very few times I've had to kite. Degrodel's guards - an optional fight - have been unexpectedly hard, and I've had to run in circles as they followed me out into the streets.

[Icedfate]

well even on core difficulty, some of the later fights, the enemies were hitting my front line tank with -7 AC, 3-4 times a round for 20 damage each time.
how is someone supposed to survive an onslaught when enemies are doing twice that in half the time? clerics can only heal so quickly, if the fight is in there and its like

ug, 20 damage
healer begins casting a cure spell
"vita", enemy hits, 20 damage
"mortis" enemy hits 20 more damage, enemy hits 20 more damage
"cariu.." enemy hits, fighter dies

spell cancelled

and this was on core rules.

wtf am I supposed to do when enemies hit for 40?

in every thread I always see people using vague tactical avice like

"play good", "use the right spells", "use the right buffs at the right time", "don't take damage",

"pto tip : don't get hit"



as for the hit dice enemy level thing, how is that an exaggeration? I made a logical conclusion that 10 levels are being added to all the enemy effective levels, based on the observation that enemy casters are casting theri spells at a much higher caster level than they should be.
in order for a 5th level caster to cast a melfs acid arrow that burns for 5 rounds, they have to be 15th level.

I don't know what the saving throw tables look like for a 15th level monster but I do know this when i throw spells at the enemies, they either don't do anything and just fizzle with no feedback at all.

or it says

save vs. spell :26
save vs spell : 17
save vs spell :23
save vs spell : 25

almost every single time, the enemy gets rolls between 15-26 saves against my spell.

I used web and it works, sometimes, I'll cast a web on enemies outside of aggro range and see in the feedback some like

gnoll save :26
gnoll save :18
gnoll save : 15
gnoll save :21
gnoll : held

then I move in and attack with a volley and next round it says

gnoll saved :20 and it comes rushing at me and I have to kite it.

as I said earlier, I'm starting to use summons now and those at least, make the fights bearable. in my lob run, my whole party is level 5 and we can take down a single ankheg, but I need 2 skeletons to tank for me while the rest of the party goes in. my tank only has 70 hp so 2 hits and they are dead.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

wtf am I supposed to do when enemies hit for 40?

Such as Meilum or Greywolf. I've mentioned them and their damage specifically in the linked topic. I've fled and returned later. Hold Person worked. I've played with custom companions except for Imoen.

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

as for the hit dice enemy level thing, how is that an exaggeration?

Not the HD theory, which I cannot comment on, but the thing you wrote at the end of the same sentence: so basically, no spell you cast is gonna work on anything unless they roll a natural 1. That is not true.

[Icedfate]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

wtf am I supposed to do when enemies hit for 40?

Such as Meilum or Greywolf. I've mentioned them and their damage specifically in the linked topic. I've fled and returned later. Hold Person worked. I've played with custom companions except for Imoen.

Originally posted by FeMaiden:

as for the hit dice enemy level thing, how is that an exaggeration?

Not the HD theory, which I cannot comment on, but the thing you wrote at the end of the same sentence: so basically, no spell you cast is gonna work on anything unless they roll a natural 1. That is not true.

I know for a fact that in LoB mode, all the monsters get at least +6 to their saving throws, because in the feedback when they save it says "save vs spell = 26"

well, here's the thing. in d&d rules, you have a table of numbers, it says something like "save vs paralyzation/poison/death : 12"
by my understanding that means you roll d20 and then add any modifiers and if your roll meets or exceeds that number, then you save.

now, have the 2e PHB in front of me in a pdf file. I found the saving throw tables.
a fighter's saving throws are in the 10-13 range at level 8 which is the maximum level you can be in bg1 as a warrior.

at around level 12, they start getting numbers between 7-11

beyond level 13, all their saving throws are 7 or less.

according to the DMG, monsters "save as fighters" (with some exceptions)

so, if I am indeed correct, and the monsters are saving as fighters 10 levels higher, then an ogre, a normally 4HD monster is gonna save as a level 14 fighter which means all their saving throws are gonna be 7 or less

if the monsters have a 7 or less on their target number and they are getting +6 to their roll then theoretically, they will only fail on a natural 1.

the rules state that when you roll the die, a 1 or a 20 before any modifiers are added is a "natural"

a natural 20 is automatic success while a natural 1 is automatic failure.

there are occasions where an attacker's thac0 vs the defender's AC is such a huge diffeence
that the target number necessary is higher than 20 which is an "impossible to hit number" and in that case, you will only hit on a natural 20.

other times, some of the most powerful enemies had a thac0 as low as -5 (the tarrasque) and in that case, they would only need to roll a 2 to hit a -7 AC (which seems to be the highest you can get in this game)

there isn't anything that I know of that has a -5 thac0 in this, but I know that drizzt has a 5, aec'letec has a 3.

so I don't know if its an "exaggeration"

I will admit that I don't know the actual numerical values it is assigning to the monsters.
I don't know what the monster's Thac0 is in LoB difficulty.
I know that the description of the difficulty says "the enemies have inproved thac0 and increased number of attacks and a bonus to their saving throws"

so yeah, I'm making a theoretical assumption.


maybe a gibberling won't have -5 thac0 and 7 on their saving throws, but what about the things in durlag's tower?

even on core rules, those greater ghouls move so quick with their hasted speed, they attack so quick and fast, you can't even kite them period, they hit so often and do 20-25 damage in a single hit, how the hell do you fight those on LoB?

the dwarven doomguards can tear a max level party to sheds in just a couple of rounds on core rules.

aec'letec is practically impossible even on core rules, I had to use cheese tactics and exploit the ai, dropping spells on him from outside his aggro radius.