Doom is 3D, limited but still 3D.

[Ikagura]

Why are people still debating about this subject when it has been proved that there are still Z-axis elements in the game's code?

Sure it's not a fully polygonal 3D like Quake but there are too many elements in gameplay and the game's code taking the height of the player and some monsters into account (like being able to run under a projectile if you're being fast enough).

I don't get why there are people going "Ackchyually, Doom is 2.5D because it has raytracing and cannot have rooms over rooms" when 2.5D mostly refers to 3D rendered games with only two axes (like in a side scroller, Metroidvania or even action/RPG) and that it's quite arbitrary for "3D games with 2D sprites" when it's mostly a visual style (like many PS1 era JRPG).

https://youtu.be/ZYGJQqhMN1U?si=dr4dp8Z2zLmn1HT8
https://youtu.be/CLRvPJppwsM?si=B3_ril3hQdeK72sI
https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Z-clipping

[Withered Rose]

y'all gotta stop calling doom a raycaster, that's wolfenstein you're thinking of ;-;

[Ikagura]

Doom uses something more advanced than Raycasting.

[Captain n00by]

Origineel geplaatst door Ikagura:

Doom is indeed 3D and there are proofs.

On the other hand, Carmack considers it "not true 3D" and he is somewhat of a graphics engine tech guru, having programmed all pre DooM 2016 reboot id Software engines.

Even DooM 2016 didn't completely scrap Carmack's work, they reused a lot of what he made.

[Edward850]

Origineel geplaatst door EvilReFlex:

"Doom is 3D, why the debate?"

Just because its a raycaster engine does not mean its not 3d, it has XYZ coordinates... so its 3d.

It is not a raycaster, Doom uses a bsp. You are thinking of wolf3d.

[Tsuki Zero]

Origineel geplaatst door Captain n00by:

Origineel geplaatst door Ikagura:

Doom is indeed 3D and there are proofs.

On the other hand, Carmack considers it "not true 3D" and he is somewhat of a graphics engine tech guru, having programmed all pre DooM 2016 reboot id Software engines.

Even DooM 2016 didn't completely scrap Carmack's work, they reused a lot of what he made.

Well, the guy who came up with the GIF image calls it "Jif".
Just because they made it doesn't automatically make them right.

[shopping mall intercom]

"Is Doom 3D?" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate

[Ocelote.12]

Origineel geplaatst door Ikagura:

Origineel geplaatst door Ocelote.12:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Is this relevant to the topic since we are not blind?

Maybe you are blinded by your ignorance. You talk about 3D, 2D and 2.5D without the exact scientific definitions of these terms, so you can twist these terms as you want.

[Captain n00by]

Origineel geplaatst door Tsuki Zero:

Origineel geplaatst door Captain n00by:

On the other hand, Carmack considers it "not true 3D" and he is somewhat of a graphics engine tech guru, having programmed all pre DooM 2016 reboot id Software engines.

Even DooM 2016 didn't completely scrap Carmack's work, they reused a lot of what he made.

Well, the guy who came up with the GIF image calls it "Jif".
Just because they made it doesn't automatically make them right.

Surely the guy who wrote all the id Tech engines (sans id Tech 6 and id Tech 7) would have some knowledge about what he's talking about...

[Phoenix]

When you get down to it, the world doesn't even really exist to you. It's just a simulation your brain creates based upon data collected by input sensors. Doom, Quake... they'e all just binary data running around inside computer chips - just as the world is chemical and electrical signals inside your squishy noodle. What you see on the screen is just a representation of the data. If it's 3D to YOU, then it's 3D. If not, well, why does it really matter? Just have fun blasting the demons.

[Tsuki Zero]

Origineel geplaatst door Captain n00by:

Origineel geplaatst door Tsuki Zero:

Well, the guy who came up with the GIF image calls it "Jif".
Just because they made it doesn't automatically make them right.

Surely the guy who wrote all the id Tech engines (sans id Tech 6 and id Tech 7) would have some knowledge about what he's talking about...

And what would he define as 3D then?

[Ikagura]

Origineel geplaatst door Captain n00by:

Origineel geplaatst door Ikagura:

Doom is indeed 3D and there are proofs.

On the other hand, Carmack considers it "not true 3D" and he is somewhat of a graphics engine tech guru, having programmed all pre DooM 2016 reboot id Software engines.

Even DooM 2016 didn't completely scrap Carmack's work, they reused a lot of what he made.

Carmack may have said that for Quake to seem better but how is sprite based 3D not real 3D when XYZ axe are still being used?

Origineel geplaatst door Tsuki Zero:

Origineel geplaatst door Captain n00by:

On the other hand, Carmack considers it "not true 3D" and he is somewhat of a graphics engine tech guru, having programmed all pre DooM 2016 reboot id Software engines.

Even DooM 2016 didn't completely scrap Carmack's work, they reused a lot of what he made.

Well, the guy who came up with the GIF image calls it "Jif".
Just because they made it doesn't automatically make them right.

It's not gif because of giraffe? Since usually acronyms are pronounciated as normal words.

Origineel geplaatst door Ocelote.12:

Origineel geplaatst door Ikagura:

Is this relevant to the topic since we are not blind?

Maybe you are blinded by your ignorance. You talk about 3D, 2D and 2.5D without the exact scientific definitions of these terms, so you can twist these terms as you want.

Then tell us the scientific definition of these terms instead of calling someone ignorant.
Doom clearly shows 3D elements tho.

"2.5D" does not exist per se, it's merely a term we agreed upon for some games (especially platformers using 3D graphics in 2D gameplay).

Origineel geplaatst door Captain n00by:

Origineel geplaatst door Tsuki Zero:

Well, the guy who came up with the GIF image calls it "Jif".
Just because they made it doesn't automatically make them right.

Surely the guy who wrote all the id Tech engines (sans id Tech 6 and id Tech 7) would have some knowledge about what he's talking about...

Let's avoid the argument from authority there, shall we?

[Tsuki Zero]

Origineel geplaatst door Ikagura:

Origineel geplaatst door Tsuki Zero:

Well, the guy who came up with the GIF image calls it "Jif".
Just because they made it doesn't automatically make them right.

It's not gif because of giraffe? Since usually acronyms are pronounciated as normal words.

It's one of the "great" debates there is, made worse by Steve Wilhite (file format creator) favoring soft "g" over hard "g", and not even dictionaries can agree on which one should be the primary or secondary (if at all) pronunciation.

What supports the hard "g" over soft "g" argument is what the acronym stands for (Graphics Interchange Format) the fact there's the word "jiff" (which soft "g" GIF would confuse with), and it appears even the Oxford Dictionary went from siding with the authority (soft "g" only), to considering the alternate (hard "g"), and now appears to have flipped and they prioritize hard "g" over soft "g", or maybe are impartial (it ain't clear, the online dictionary simply shows both with the hard "g" on top row (British and American pronunciation).

It also depends on region, accent, nationality, etc., and there are some people who simply says the acronym by spelling it out instead of treating it as a word. But even polls favored hard "g" over soft "g", The J.M. Smucker Company (the owners of the Jif brand) defends the hard "g" for GIF because otherwise it sounds like the "Jif" brand and even sided with GIPHY to make informational GIFs about it, so, yeah... It's one of the debates that are rather silly and even involved the TV and politics into it because they couldn't agree.

[Ikagura]

Origineel geplaatst door Tsuki Zero:

Origineel geplaatst door Ikagura:

It's not gif because of giraffe? Since usually acronyms are pronounciated as normal words.

It's one of the "great" debates there is, made worse by Steve Wilhite (file format creator) favoring soft "g" over hard "g", and not even dictionaries can agree on which one should be the primary or secondary (if at all) pronunciation.

What supports the hard "g" over soft "g" argument is what the acronym stands for (Graphics Interchange Format) the fact there's the word "jiff" (which soft "g" GIF would confuse with), and it appears even the Oxford Dictionary went from siding with the authority (soft "g" only), to considering the alternate (hard "g"), and now appears to have flipped and they prioritize hard "g" over soft "g", or maybe are impartial (it ain't clear, the online dictionary simply shows both with the hard "g" on top row (British and American pronunciation).

It also depends on region, accent, nationality, etc., and there are some people who simply says the acronym by spelling it out instead of treating it as a word. But even polls favored hard "g" over soft "g", The J.M. Smucker Company (the owners of the Jif brand) defends the hard "g" for GIF because otherwise it sounds like the "Jif" brand and even sided with GIPHY to make informational GIFs about it, so, yeah... It's one of the debates that are rather silly and even involved the TV and politics into it because they couldn't agree.

I'd argue that JPEG stands for "Joint Photographic Expert Group" yet the P is not pronounciated as the F sound.

[xxsmbr]

Origineel geplaatst door Edward850:

Origineel geplaatst door EvilReFlex:

"Doom is 3D, why the debate?"

Just because its a raycaster engine does not mean its not 3d, it has XYZ coordinates... so its 3d.

It is not a raycaster, Doom uses a bsp. You are thinking of wolf3d.

Raycasting has nothing to do with BSP. They are not the same thing at all.

[Ikagura]

Origineel geplaatst door xxsmbr:

Origineel geplaatst door Edward850:

It is not a raycaster, Doom uses a bsp. You are thinking of wolf3d.

Raycasting has nothing to do with BSP. They are not the same thing at all.

Doom may use a more advanced version of Raycasting but the maps are sectorised with heights and defined floors/ceilings/elevators.

Wolfenstein 3D was forced to use a bloc-based mapping and had not ceiling texture.

In Doom you could fall into a pit and not being able to climb up without taking stairs.