Some Feedback for Robot Entertainment

[B1tchFight]

Hey guys, I am still unsure if I should give it a positive or a negative vote on the Steam Page, so I will share some thoughts first.

Let me start off with the barricade thing... I don't understand the tears. I saw the reviews last night, and I was shocked that it had an overwhelmingly negative rating at some point. So I read the negative reviews to see what it is all about before buying. As I expected, most people were crying about the usual crap.

Today I started my first match and had 22 barricades (after the update). I tried it with 16 and it still worked. Got +2 on the first wave as extra. The mission reward gave me +8 barricades for the next one. So I had 32, and that's overkill. I could block off all paths and funnel them into a killbox with only 20 and had 12 to toy around and create a maze. I was standing behind the maze, waiting for them to get through it, but only some flyers could pass and this money-stealing bastard.

Having more than 22 barricades renders the point of having multiple gates obsolete, as they don't spawn all at the same time. Forcing all lanes into a single killbox is way too easy for a solo player already. First map, I had 50k coins; at the end, 2nd map, 59k coins. I could have spammed ceiling ballista everywhere and wouldn't even need so many barricades.

So stop whining about the barricade limit!

But in terms of creativity, there should be no hard limit, but maybe an ever-increasing price per barricade over the limit. Limit them to 10, pay 1000 for the 11th, and increase by 300 per barricade.... Being able to place down 22 at the start makes the first 2–3 waves basically an easy win, allowing a killbox big enough to fully focus on the 3rd gate and place down 10 traps after the wave. And from here on it's only steamrolling to a point where the income allows placing down 10–20 traps per wave.


The second topic is addressed to Robot Entertainment directly. 

Why in 7 hells are you guys always making the same mistake over and over again? In OMDU you had a solid blueprint of where the road would end, and you still used handcrafted maps that limited your ability to create new maps fast enough. Instead, you tossed out one hero after another. There were plenty of traps missing from the first two games, but you still added new traps. Why not take what you have and add to it? OMD 3 introduced new mechanics, great... but what about the old ones? OMD-D offers new mechanics as well, new heroes, new abilities, great... but what about the old ones?  You have all the content available, but you are not using it.  Instead it's dying out because nobody cares about the prev. games anymore.

Can you tell me why you don't create a platform for Orcs Must Die and keep spamming new content in? Now and then you can add a DLC with some major content updates, and as long as people get content worth the price, they will pay. This way, you can add different game modes, and you have something for everyone at every given time.

What about people who like the normal story mode from OMD 1–3? Now it's similar to the scramble mode. I don't understand the decisions you are making. Some people want the stupid PvP Mode from OMDU, some want a creative mode, some want a heavy focus on endless... Some like small maps for solo play, others like large maps for party play.

Instead of that, you force the party mechanic onto them by limiting things that were not limited before and by forcing big maps that "require" party play for "casual" gamers.

I don't see myself playing OMDD for long, the way it is right now, and that's pretty bad.

I would continue to play, but I almost reach the 2-hour mark... Furthermore, I will wait a week or two before submitting my refund request on the last day, just to see how you guys react to the player base.

I am quite certain that you might be done for it if you fail this game as well. People are getting more and more disappointed in the once big OMD franchise. In case I refund it, I will come back if I get it during a sale for 10 bucks just to finish what I started. Like I did with OMD 3. It was quite good at the end...

[Ratnadhatamam]

I am with you.
I have yet to play the game (was waiting on the reviews), but I agree with everything you said.

First, the barricade thing. Yes, there are some people complaining about difficulty or whatever, but to me (without playing the game yet) the limit is a huge let down because it was not about difficulty it was about FUN. I remember being free to try pretty much unlimited combination of traps in different maps, and barricades played a big role. I used to sit with a friend and do challenges, like playing X map with just 'cades and teleports, or just guardians and dummies, etc. So I guess to me, it is a limit on re re-playability, and FUN.

Second, I subscribe every word.
The most painful thing for me is to see the characters. Why on earth would you use some default fortnite skins instead of the gorgeous and unique heroes you had in unchained??? I cannot see how or why things that were already established and loved, are just skipped and forgotten every time a new game comes out. Besides, Max and his jokes and his wordplay with other characters was half the games. Doesn't feel OMD without Max on the lead.


For me, the ideal OMD formula is:
OMD2 + new maps + new traps/trinkets/weapons/guardians + the heroes in OMDU + more players (1-4 is great) + new things if you want, but I do not need them. And I feel that this is what a lot of the old school players want. But I could be wrong.

With this idea in mind, the OMD 'platform' works brilliantly. Start from a familiar point, and keep adding stuff. Downloadable, paid, expansions/packages, you name it, that's it.

I want the franchise to be successful and live on, but it seems that with every new game released it strays further from the original games, the ones most of us loved to play.

[B1tchFight]

Originally posted by Ratnadhatamam:

I am with you.
I have yet to play the game (was waiting on the reviews), but I agree with everything you said.

First, the barricade thing. Yes, there are some people complaining about difficulty or whatever, but to me (without playing the game yet) the limit is a huge let down because it was not about difficulty it was about FUN. I remember being free to try pretty much unlimited combination of traps in different maps, and barricades played a big role. I used to sit with a friend and do challenges, like playing X map with just 'cades and teleports, or just guardians and dummies, etc. So I guess to me, it is a limit on re re-playability, and FUN.

Second, I subscribe every word.
The most painful thing for me is to see the characters. Why on earth would you use some default fortnite skins instead of the gorgeous and unique heroes you had in unchained??? I cannot see how or why things that were already established and loved, are just skipped and forgotten every time a new game comes out. Besides, Max and his jokes and his wordplay with other characters was half the games. Doesn't feel OMD without Max on the lead.


For me, the ideal OMD formula is:
OMD2 + new maps + new traps/trinkets/weapons/guardians + the heroes in OMDU + more players (1-4 is great) + new things if you want, but I do not need them. And I feel that this is what a lot of the old school players want. But I could be wrong.

With this idea in mind, the OMD 'platform' works brilliantly. Start from a familiar point, and keep adding stuff. Downloadable, paid, expansions/packages, you name it, that's it.

I want the franchise to be successful and live on, but it seems that with every new game released it strays further from the original games, the ones most of us loved to play.

Back when I played Battlefield 3, I had the same argument: Why not create a platform and add new game mods and maps to it instead of splitting the community every single year? Down the road, you lose more and more players, and the new generation doesn't add as much value to the community as the old one because people now days are not loyal to a game anymore. Every few weeks new games come out, and people switch games like some other switch their underwear. Last time I played a game with someone for more than 50 hours without them starting up another game was back on OMDU. But the only reason was the amount of people we had active on TeamSpeak. People came for the people and played the game. Not the other way around. Now people come for the game and don't care about playing "with" people, but rather go to the next game after a few days.

I started Path of Exile 2 with 5 others in December. I am the only one playing it now. 3 of them gave up before reaching lv 90 while I am on my 4th character that's on it's way to lv 90 now.

But I am sure that you could keep people active or at least keep them coming back to the game if you keep updating the game and add new stuff to the core of the game instead of making 1 game every 2–3 years.


I would continue OMDD now if I had someone that I knew I could play with for a couple of hundred hours at a time. But for a solo game it doesn't offer enough interesting gameplay mechanics. Please don't get me started on random matchmaking. If there is one thing that I hate more than PvP content, it's random players you can't communicate with. ^^

Just imagine you start up Orcs Must Die now and you can pick between 5 game modes, 100 maps and 30 heroes with 100 traps and 300 trap upgrades. You could play the way you want to.... OMDU was already in a good spot shortly before it died. Now we are back to 5 heroes :-D

Yet another thing I noticed before I filled my 2 hours playtime with the first boss map. 1 Session goes over 3 maps with 13 waves. If I leave, I lose everytihng... What happens if I start a game, finish the first map and a friend comes online or I want to join his session to help out? I have to finish my "entire" session first or I lose my progress.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

Back when I played Battlefield 3, I had the same argument: Why not create a platform and add new game mods and maps to it instead of splitting the community every single year? Down the road, you lose more and more players, and the new generation doesn't add as much value to the community as the old one because people now days are not loyal to a game anymore.

It is a psychological thing, even if someone is done with the old game, he will be back for the new one. "loyality" only works for MMOs and even there player numbers are leaking after a certain point. New title restores playerbase and "resets" imaginary "playtime until stopping" timer. Not everybody is ready to go back even with constant updates, as liveservice games show you.

[Pretoryan]

Their track record says "deliver only the minimum requirements that the publisher demanded".

I would love if they were to listen to feedback, but I fear that in 3 months everything will go silent, and they will look for another platform to fund OMD5 or whatever.

Not one OMD game was ever continuously updated, they have abandoned every single project and reused everything in the next one.

[MishaXG]

Agree for Barricades after the update it just feels overkill and break the game balance.

Orcs Must Die should just be a single game with major updates and DLC AND a Map Builder so people in the community could add some maps easily.
Which could then be turned as ''Official Maps'' if they are good.

Overall most games should take what was in their previous games, add new things, rework some maps and so on... but it just sounds stupid that all the work previously done disappear...
Take Payday 3 as an example... if you take all the Payday 1 and Payday 2 maps the game would have a lot more content nearly for free... but for some reason it s never done which is just weird and in my opinion poor choices.

i wish some things from previous Orcs Must Die were implemented again, cause even if the game is fun i feel like that once you ve killed all bosses... well it will get boring in no time, cause not enough traps, traps upgrade are super basic like damage, price, CD... where in previous games it was more than that.
Having to pray for RNJesus to get the right card to upgrade your trap isnt a good game design neither... people arent stupid so they ll just take what ever is 100% sure to work instead of having 10% chance to get their cool upgrade, cause if you dont have it then your trap is kind of useless in comparaison of others.

[B1tchFight]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

Back when I played Battlefield 3, I had the same argument: Why not create a platform and add new game mods and maps to it instead of splitting the community every single year? Down the road, you lose more and more players, and the new generation doesn't add as much value to the community as the old one because people now days are not loyal to a game anymore.

It is a psychological thing, even if someone is done with the old game, he will be back for the new one. "loyality" only works for MMOs and even there player numbers are leaking after a certain point. New title restores playerbase and "resets" imaginary "playtime until stopping" timer. Not everybody is ready to go back even with constant updates, as liveservice games show you.

Yes, but have you ever asked someone who stops a live service game why he stoped?

The thing is that OMD as platformer wouldn't be a live service game. It's still the same game but instead of making a new game every now and then they can make a huge "DLC" for like 25 bucks offering to add the content from the new game into the platform that exists. OMD is a game where graphics are not the most important. I see some differences betbween OMD 2 and the newer titles but I don't see much of a difference between OMDU, OMD 3 and OMDD. As long as the engine remains kinda the same, it wouldn't matter.

Liveservice games are games that are actually "live" like an MMO. With a game world that doesn't stop running while you are not playing.

Lets be honest here: How many people who bought the game wouldn't have purchased it as DLC if it were a plattformer? And how many more would have purchased it as plattformer? I can name 3 right away who don't want to play OMDD while being OMD fans just because they don't want to spend 30 bucks on a game with less content than the prev. one that costs less and has more content.

[B1tchFight]

Originally posted by Pretoryan:

Their track record says "deliver only the minimum requirements that the publisher demanded".

I would love if they were to listen to feedback, but I fear that in 3 months everything will go silent, and they will look for another platform to fund OMD5 or whatever.

Not one OMD game was ever continuously updated, they have abandoned every single project and reused everything in the next one.

If they Reused EVERYTHING in the next, I would be fine with it. But sadly, they don't... not even close. Check out the graphics for traps... Even those are updated.

Imagine the time and money for the graphic designer to design the 5th Arrow wall just because it's the 5th game now. Every trap has a re-design... every map is handcrafted...

And just to clarify: Robot Entertainment is a developer and Publisher at once. They don't have a publisher who controls them like other games often have... So they are free in their decision-making.

[Tam]

I agree with the idea of bringing thinks from past games into the new game, but I heavily disagree with making just one game and upgrading it endlessly.
At some point the base game will look very different from the first release and buyers of the first will not have access to what they originally bought anymore.
Rigth now I can go back to OMD 1 or 2 or 3 and can still play them, with your idea of making it just one plattform all we would have is Orcs must die deathtrap, and maybe deathtrap would be a better game than it is now, but it would still be different from any of the first three.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

Originally posted by Butcher:

It is a psychological thing, even if someone is done with the old game, he will be back for the new one. "loyality" only works for MMOs and even there player numbers are leaking after a certain point. New title restores playerbase and "resets" imaginary "playtime until stopping" timer. Not everybody is ready to go back even with constant updates, as liveservice games show you.

Yes, but have you ever asked someone who stops a live service game why he stoped?

The thing is that OMD as platformer wouldn't be a live service game. It's still the same game but instead of making a new game every now and then they can make a huge "DLC" for like 25 bucks offering to add the content from the new game into the platform that exists. OMD is a game where graphics are not the most important. I see some differences betbween OMD 2 and the newer titles but I don't see much of a difference between OMDU, OMD 3 and OMDD. As long as the engine remains kinda the same, it wouldn't matter.

Liveservice games are games that are actually "live" like an MMO. With a game world that doesn't stop running while you are not playing.

Lets be honest here: How many people who bought the game wouldn't have purchased it as DLC if it were a plattformer? And how many more would have purchased it as plattformer? I can name 3 right away who don't want to play OMDD while being OMD fans just because they don't want to spend 30 bucks on a game with less content than the prev. one that costs less and has more content.

Eventually gameplay loop simply gets stale. When - depends on the game and particular player. It is longer for complex strategy games and simulations, generally shorter for shooters.

DLCs might work certain amount of times. How much - again depends on the game. But still, eventually interest drops just as DLC sales. At certain point there is more effort spent on DLCs than revenue, I imagine.


That being said, I think Deathtrap is the real end of the franchise.

[Pretoryan]

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

Originally posted by Pretoryan:

Their track record says "deliver only the minimum requirements that the publisher demanded".

I would love if they were to listen to feedback, but I fear that in 3 months everything will go silent, and they will look for another platform to fund OMD5 or whatever.

Not one OMD game was ever continuously updated, they have abandoned every single project and reused everything in the next one.

If they Reused EVERYTHING in the next, I would be fine with it. But sadly, they don't... not even close. Check out the graphics for traps... Even those are updated.

Imagine the time and money for the graphic designer to design the 5th Arrow wall just because it's the 5th game now. Every trap has a re-design... every map is handcrafted...

And just to clarify: Robot Entertainment is a developer and Publisher at once. They don't have a publisher who controls them like other games often have... So they are free in their decision-making.

Not true mate. Previous game was funded by google, and abandoned faster than stadia. This one was funded by Microsoft for Game pass, and I would be surprised that it would be any different. (which makes me sad, not gloating or happy).

And no, I do know about the time and money for a UX Designer and UI Artist to rework already existing mechanics, and it's not nearly as much as you would make it sound from your post.

It's Game design and Development that take the biggest chunk of time (why preprod for games like the Witcher takes years for example), and when you reuse so much from previous games, the costs are significantly lower.

They made bank on both this and the previous titles before they even released them, and then abandoned so they can keep the profit instead of at least giving us a finished experience.

Find me an OMD game which made it (realistically) past version 0.5, and I will show you the veil that is pulled tightly over your eyes.

[B1tchFight]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

Yes, but have you ever asked someone who stops a live service game why he stoped?

The thing is that OMD as platformer wouldn't be a live service game. It's still the same game but instead of making a new game every now and then they can make a huge "DLC" for like 25 bucks offering to add the content from the new game into the platform that exists. OMD is a game where graphics are not the most important. I see some differences betbween OMD 2 and the newer titles but I don't see much of a difference between OMDU, OMD 3 and OMDD. As long as the engine remains kinda the same, it wouldn't matter.

Liveservice games are games that are actually "live" like an MMO. With a game world that doesn't stop running while you are not playing.

Lets be honest here: How many people who bought the game wouldn't have purchased it as DLC if it were a plattformer? And how many more would have purchased it as plattformer? I can name 3 right away who don't want to play OMDD while being OMD fans just because they don't want to spend 30 bucks on a game with less content than the prev. one that costs less and has more content.

Eventually gameplay loop simply gets stale. When - depends on the game and particular player. It is longer for complex strategy games and simulations, generally shorter for shooters.

DLCs might work certain amount of times. How much - again depends on the game. But still, eventually interest drops just as DLC sales. At certain point there is more effort spent on DLCs than revenue, I imagine.


That being said, I think Deathtrap is the real end of the franchise.

Kinda right but the most common reason for people to stop a LiveService game are the people they play with or a new game that comes out. And returning to a LiveService game is as hard as it gets... If you have people to play and talk with while playing, it can often be a dull gameplay loop.

Have you ever played a game like Anno 1800 or Factorio? A single session after 400-800 hours and you quit for what ever reason. After about 1 year you startup the game and load the save and you notice that you know jacks*it about what's going on... :-D While you could tell every detail of your session at the moment you quit. Every trade route, every outpost, every island, resource and so on. That's the reason why people usually don't go back to Live Service games once they quit.

OMD as a plattformer would be different in terms of replayability.

Wanna know what I did when I started m first map? I saw the lanes, I blocked some off, tossed down brimstone, spike, brimstone, spike, brimstone, spike, placed arrow walls on spots where they had to move 2-3 squares straight, spammed ballista on the ceiling and hit start... I did not even need to read the trap tooltips because OMD is OMD. It's all about the maps and the heroes. And for some people like me the skilltrees and upgrades. And I don't even have to think about what trap I unlocked first... I think there is not a single experienced OMD player that did not unlock TAR TRAP as first trap. :-D

[Butcher]

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

Originally posted by Butcher:

Eventually gameplay loop simply gets stale. When - depends on the game and particular player. It is longer for complex strategy games and simulations, generally shorter for shooters.

DLCs might work certain amount of times. How much - again depends on the game. But still, eventually interest drops just as DLC sales. At certain point there is more effort spent on DLCs than revenue, I imagine.


That being said, I think Deathtrap is the real end of the franchise.

Kinda right but the most common reason for people to stop a LiveService game are the people they play with or a new game that comes out. And returning to a LiveService game is as hard as it gets... If you have people to play and talk with while playing, it can often be a dull gameplay loop.

Have you ever played a game like Anno 1800 or Factorio? A single session after 400-800 hours and you quit for what ever reason. After about 1 year you startup the game and load the save and you notice that you know jacks*it about what's going on... :-D While you could tell every detail of your session at the moment you quit. Every trade route, every outpost, every island, resource and so on. That's the reason why people usually don't go back to Live Service games once they quit.

OMD as a plattformer would be different in terms of replayability.

Wanna know what I did when I started m first map? I saw the lanes, I blocked some off, tossed down brimstone, spike, brimstone, spike, brimstone, spike, placed arrow walls on spots where they had to move 2-3 squares straight, spammed ballista on the ceiling and hit start... I did not even need to read the trap tooltips because OMD is OMD. It's all about the maps and the heroes. And for some people like me the skilltrees and upgrades. And I don't even have to think about what trap I unlocked first... I think there is not a single experienced OMD player that did not unlock TAR TRAP as first trap. :-D

Very few live service games (if any at all) are complex enough to confuse you on returning. I can jump into Vermintide and smash rats or into Deep Rock and burn bugs after 2 year break without feeling lost.

But that break in the first place is telling that I got bored of gameplay loop. Maybe in a few more years I will get back, but for now all DLCs are meaningless for me.

[TimeMaster]

Agreeing on something with B1tchfight is not something I could have ever expected in 2025.

Not sure about live service but rebuilding a lot every time is probably costly and risky. Not including popular content/mechanics from previous games is bound to get unhappy fans.

[B1tchFight]

Originally posted by Pretoryan:

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

If they Reused EVERYTHING in the next, I would be fine with it. But sadly, they don't... not even close. Check out the graphics for traps... Even those are updated.

Imagine the time and money for the graphic designer to design the 5th Arrow wall just because it's the 5th game now. Every trap has a re-design... every map is handcrafted...

And just to clarify: Robot Entertainment is a developer and Publisher at once. They don't have a publisher who controls them like other games often have... So they are free in their decision-making.

Not true mate. Previous game was funded by google, and abandoned faster than stadia. This one was funded by Microsoft for Game pass, and I would be surprised that it would be any different. (which makes me sad, not gloating or happy).

And no, I do know about the time and money for a UX Designer and UI Artist to rework already existing mechanics, and it's not nearly as much as you would make it sound from your post.

It's Game design and Development that take the biggest chunk of time (why preprod for games like the Witcher takes years for example), and when you reuse so much from previous games, the costs are significantly lower.

They made bank on both this and the previous titles before they even released them, and then abandoned so they can keep the profit instead of at least giving us a finished experience.

Find me an OMD game which made it (realistically) past version 0.5, and I will show you the veil that is pulled tightly over your eyes.

I really don't know how it works if you have bigger companies funding your game but I can assure you that having a publisher is clearly worst than someone funding your game. I would like to know how big the influence of Microsoft / Google is compared to games that have a greedy publisher like EA... If you have infos about that, feel free to share it with me.

I don't think any of the OMD games after 1 and 2 are really "finished". But After all the updates and DLCs (that I paid 10 bucks for) OMD 3 was really enjoyable and I played it for a few hundred hours. I got my moneys worth out of it. Same for OMDU where I spend 0 in the end. But I don't see 30€ worth in OMDD.

No, it's not "that" expansive to re-design existing graphics. But that's not the point. The point is that they made a "new" game and invested time and money (regardless of the amount) into a re-design rather than just taking ALL the existing stuff and add new stuff to it.
Ofc you are right, to offer anything of value they would have to create something new that costs more in the long run. But like I said in the prev. comment: it's all about the amount of maps, heroes and traps that keep people interested in OMD.

[B1tchFight]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Originally posted by B1tchFight:

Kinda right but the most common reason for people to stop a LiveService game are the people they play with or a new game that comes out. And returning to a LiveService game is as hard as it gets... If you have people to play and talk with while playing, it can often be a dull gameplay loop.

Have you ever played a game like Anno 1800 or Factorio? A single session after 400-800 hours and you quit for what ever reason. After about 1 year you startup the game and load the save and you notice that you know jacks*it about what's going on... :-D While you could tell every detail of your session at the moment you quit. Every trade route, every outpost, every island, resource and so on. That's the reason why people usually don't go back to Live Service games once they quit.

OMD as a plattformer would be different in terms of replayability.

Wanna know what I did when I started m first map? I saw the lanes, I blocked some off, tossed down brimstone, spike, brimstone, spike, brimstone, spike, placed arrow walls on spots where they had to move 2-3 squares straight, spammed ballista on the ceiling and hit start... I did not even need to read the trap tooltips because OMD is OMD. It's all about the maps and the heroes. And for some people like me the skilltrees and upgrades. And I don't even have to think about what trap I unlocked first... I think there is not a single experienced OMD player that did not unlock TAR TRAP as first trap. :-D

Very few live service games (if any at all) are complex enough to confuse you on returning. I can jump into Vermintide and smash rats or into Deep Rock and burn bugs after 2 year break without feeling lost.

But that break in the first place is telling that I got bored of gameplay loop. Maybe in a few more years I will get back, but for now all DLCs are meaningless for me.

Okay, I do not count these as "LiveService" games. At this point every game with a server that keeps track of your progress could be considered "LiveService" hence the fact that none is in the end.

Maybe I am wrong but LiveService games are games with a gameworld that is alive while I am not playing and that forces me to play or else I can suffer from FOMO (Fear of missing out) adding the fact that spending money for microtransactions. Usually MMOs with complex markets you need to keep track if you are into it or mobile games and stuff like that.

So usually none of the games you mentioned would qualify as life service game for me.