Something's not right with the AI...

[GShock]

Reinstalled after a year or so and I found no glitches and only a CTD. I have been playing intensively throughout the week and I can tell with huge spiral galaxy, as human, slow pace and slow tech, there simply is no way to stay alive against all the AI plus uncommon minor races.

The minor themselves are so ubered that their economy is non-existent: it's all industrial.

All they do is stay at their home planet with a huge fleet you need 2 hours of gaming just to reach the technology (and the numbers) to conquer them.

The big deal comes with the major races instead... I have something like 40 ships, all outdated but a big share of the galaxy with plenty of high techs... my neighbors fleets have 800 hit points and much stronger technology and while my economy is straight theirs is flourishing.

I haven't declared any war nor was I declared one but I see it's pointless to play because the AI is simply too ubered with a false economy and more than double my numbers. While the player does compromises and tries to keep a balanced economy with military and diplomacy, the AI can handle multiple wars at the same time and still defeat you consistently because there's something very wrong.

I'm talking out of experience, in this game I quit because it's pointless to play and in the 20 previous ones I really tried hard to win but it's simply impossible.

Look at the minor races: 12 ships, all medium sized and have ONE planet. Where do they take the technology if I have 20 planets with 50 research centers and I can't match their ship size?

Attack 40 (multiple fleets) vs 12 at their planet is not always a good idea... better destroy their shipyard as soon as it comes in space and then with transports ready you sacrifice all your 80 ships just to take that single planet... of a minor AI.

Do you realize it takes 100 turns just to do that? We're talking of a single planet of a single AI. (tech brokering and surrender disabled). Figure how one feels at imagining he has to do the same with 300 more planets in the whole galaxy. No, really... if you don't fix this I simply can't play so I'll have to uninstall again.

Sorry for the rant... but I paid for this game even before it was released and I haven't ever played it because of the bugs, the CTDs and everything else. Now it looks very good and it's challenging to find all those economies with a solid strategy but if the AI cheats this bad it's simply not worth of my time and, sadly, of the money I spent.

[mastarfin]

I only play this game on INSANE maps...with TONS of AI both Major/Minor. I do not have these issues at all.

Of course I don't typically play a military race. I play the Diplomacy/Cultural game and I stay at peace with everyone as I slowly and peacefully take over their worlds....those that are immune I get my friends (which is everyone) to destroy (sometimes I help them if needed).

So I must disagree with your statement: "I can tell with huge spiral galaxy, as human, slow pace and slow tech, there simply is no way to stay alive against all the AI plus uncommon minor races." I sympathize with your frusration ... however I know from experience that there IS a way to stay alive and WIN against all the AI plus the minors.

[S̷e̸p̀ưlch͡ŕąl҉]

Originally posted by GShock:

Reinstalled after a year or so and I found no glitches and only a CTD. I have been playing intensively throughout the week and I can tell with huge spiral galaxy, as human, slow pace and slow tech, there simply is no way to stay alive against all the AI plus uncommon minor races.

This simply isn't true. I am playing on an immense map with 99 AI and have taken more than half of the galaxy while playing on the slowest settings.

Originally posted by GShock:

The minor themselves are so ubered that their economy is non-existent: it's all industrial.

All they do is stay at their home planet with a huge fleet you need 2 hours of gaming just to reach the technology (and the numbers) to conquer them.

The term 'Minor Race' implies that they do not expand beyond their area of influence. They are in a way xenophobes to the expansionists mind.

Originally posted by GShock:

The big deal comes with the major races instead... I have something like 40 ships, all outdated but a big share of the galaxy with plenty of high techs... my neighbors fleets have 800 hit points and much stronger technology and while my economy is straight theirs is flourishing.

Sounds a lot like user error. Perhaps some tutorials might help guide you on your path to victory.

Originally posted by GShock:

I haven't declared any war nor was I declared one but I see it's pointless to play because the AI is simply too ubered with a false economy and more than double my numbers. While the player does compromises and tries to keep a balanced economy with military and diplomacy, the AI can handle multiple wars at the same time and still defeat you consistently because there's something very wrong.

I'm talking out of experience, in this game I quit because it's pointless to play and in the 20 previous ones I really tried hard to win but it's simply impossible.

Again, I would refer you to look into tutorials or try lowering the AI difficulty. Just because you tried hard and failed to win does not mean that it's impossible to win. Have you tried the same tactic over and over? Or, did you try something new each time?

Originally posted by GShock:

Look at the minor races: 12 ships, all medium sized and have ONE planet. Where do they take the technology if I have 20 planets with 50 research centers and I can't match their ship size?

Attack 40 (multiple fleets) vs 12 at their planet is not always a good idea... better destroy their shipyard as soon as it comes in space and then with transports ready you sacrifice all your 80 ships just to take that single planet... of a minor AI.

If you're losing this many ships to a Minor Race you're doing something wrong. Was there a military base nearby? Did you account for the defense bonuses from defending? What size of ships are you using? Are your ships dying before they are within range? What weapons and defense were being used? Are you using jamming / evasion mods? You'll have to provide more information on the situation if you want a solution to arise from this.

Originally posted by GShock:

Do you realize it takes 100 turns just to do that? We're talking of a single planet of a single AI. (tech brokering and surrender disabled). Figure how one feels at imagining he has to do the same with 300 more planets in the whole galaxy. No, really... if you don't fix this I simply can't play so I'll have to uninstall again.

Originally posted by GShock:

Sorry for the rant... but I paid for this game even before it was released and I haven't ever played it because of the bugs, the CTDs and everything else. Now it looks very good and it's challenging to find all those economies with a solid strategy but if the AI cheats this bad it's simply not worth of my time and, sadly, of the money I spent.

It's okay to rant, but I am highly suspicious of how much time/effort you have actually put in to the game. It sounds like nearly 99% of your issues with the game could be solved by simply checking into a few tutorials/guides or Let's Play videos.

[GShock]

The AI simply has no economy and no upkeep. Period.

ONE planet cannot build the technology (without a single research center) or the economy (without a single market) that sustains 20 ships with superior firepower to the entire fleet of my empire if the same rules for research and economy apply both to me and to the AI.

See if you find out an explanation on how this miracle happens for the AI in your tutorials/guides or in your Let's Play videos.

[S̷e̸p̀ưlch͡ŕąl҉]

Sure. Here is a screen shot of a manufacturing hub in one of my games:
http://s9.postimg.org/qritwwict/No_research_lab_on_this_planet.jpg


How many research labs do you count?
How many economic centers do you see?

Here is a screen shot of a single ship from that game (near m-base):
http://s18.postimg.org/5mpbkiirr/CDF_M.jpg


Albeit an extreme case (precursor/merc/bases/racial), it is possible.

[GShock]

All the AI are designed to cheat somehow. This is to simplify a conceptual method of growth (balanced or with priorities) that can't be built with our current technology. I am just wondering if the Snathi have 25.000 credits and 90 ships, mostly capital ships, by looking at a minor that is so extremely powerful militarly (by judging at its single planet) that if its economy doesn't take into account some limitations, this kind of cheating will be detrimental.

I have had games where I was winning and quit to restart and see some change and games where I was totally outmatched and couldn't even capture that single planet. Something's simply not right here and should be dealt with accordingly.

I'm quite sure it's totally different in multiplayer but this kind of simplified economy is probably the reason why you're always ripe for conquest and judged weak by aggressive and malevolent (drengin) or strong and pragmatic (krynn). If the AI was tweaked for a more realistic set of choices it wouldn't wage wars so easily because it's by exploiting an AI that is at war with someone else that you may more easily destroy it... since you're bound to be always at war with those who see you as weak and ripe for conquest, it's only a matter of time before someone else joins in. If you're outmatched even by a minor... imagine 2 or 3 majors.

I hope they look into it.

(I got an update this morning and started a new game which is working very different from usual... don't know why... maybe something changed?)

[rog214]

Remember, you don't need planetary improvements to produce wealth or research or industry - it's all based off population raw production. So that one minor planet that's class 16+ with a couple farms is going to do better than 3 or 4 class 6 planets combined. The buildings help sure, but they are not the only thing.

Just like you can set your global wheel to 40/40/20 (or whatever) on turn 1 to maximize production and research, so can the Ai. You just don't see it. The Ai can maximize the efficiency of that too, which most human's don't.

You are correct in one thing - the Ai does not pay maintenance for garrisoned fleets at planets and shipyards. This means minor races can build all the ships they want and have 0 economy drain, since they garrison all or nearly all of their ships. It's a known issue they are looking at fixing.

As for the tech, they trade to get it. As a human, you can trade the same tech to 8 (or however many) different races in the same turn. If you get a different tech from each of those races, it will look like you have huge research when you really don't. The Ai does the same - major and minors both.

[mormegil]

Originally posted by Sepulchral:

Sure. Here is a screen shot of a manufacturing hub in one of my games:
http://s9.postimg.org/qritwwict/No_research_lab_on_this_planet.jpg


How many research labs do you count?
How many economic centers do you see?

Here is a screen shot of a single ship from that game (near m-base):
http://s18.postimg.org/5mpbkiirr/CDF_M.jpg


Albeit an extreme case (precursor/merc/bases/racial), it is possible.

I am curious to know how you are getting such a high Raw Production number on that planet with only 17 population?

[mormegil]

GShock

I am sorry are having trouble, I would need to know a few more details to know if we can help.

What is the difficulty of the AI’s you are playing against? Also, if you are player on large map and give the AI too much time, before contacting them, they will often grow quite powerful, partly because they have time to build up, and partly because they will be spending that time trading with other races. This can make for a big difference in tech levels. Sometime is wars have broken out races will have already absorbed the assets of others, before you have even met them.

All that said, I have just spent some time re-balancing some of the AI behaviors, so I would recommend trying 1.7 opt in and see if it feels better to you.

rog214

We will be getting rid of the AI getting such a big maintenance brake, on all but the highest level difficulties. But we are still testing some balance issues so that will probably not be in until 1.71.

Hope this helps.

[mormegil]

GShock

If stats are changing between loads and saves, this is a real issue that we will want to track down, if you can send us a save that dose this it could be very helpful.

If you are in the Opt In beta, some of the base level stats could changes slightly as we make balance changes, but it should not large changes.

[rog214]

Originally posted by mormegil:

rog214

We will be getting rid of the AI getting such a big maintenance brake, on all but the highest level difficulties. But we are still testing some balance issues so that will probably not be in until 1.71.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the update! It never bothered me much personally, but I'm glad it's being addressed. I just always accepted it as one of the factors of the game, but from what I've read it was/is a big issue for many players.

[S̷e̸p̀ưlch͡ŕąl҉]

Originally posted by mormegil:

I am curious to know how you are getting such a high Raw Production number on that planet with only 17 population?

I will try my best to list the raw production data:

The planet population cap is actually 14.4. The number was unintentionally inflated in the screen shot by a transport ships members that I had dumped on the planet instead filling up the ship with more members. At 14 Population the raw production becomes 185.6.

Precursor Prison: 30+ Raw Production
Gaia Vortex: +4 Raw Production (Level 3 +15% Raw Production)
Mother Hive: +8 Raw Production (Level 4 +20% Raw Production)
Colony Captial: +3 Raw Production
Durantium Refinery: + 4 Raw Production
LK Seeth: +50% Raw Production (Merc)
Economic Ring x7: +70% Raw Production.
Population: +14 Raw Production
Interstellar Gov: +10% Raw Production
High Approval: +25%

64 + 290% (190%+100%) = 185.6.

Hope that clears it up a little.

[GShock]

Hi mormegil and thanks for answering.
I think what the AI routines really need is an economy that plays by the same rules (of course, once the modifiers for the species are applied). It's as simple as that.

It is at all possible to bribe a winning AI into peace by just exploiting the exploration treaties with the other AIs. That means if the Drengin are beating me but I captured one or 2 planets, I can sell my exploration treaty to some other AI and buy them into WAR on the Drengin. At the same time, I can buy PEACE with the Drengin and rebuild my forces while they fight the other AI, only to come back later at them with much more strength. I hope something can be done to limit this exploit because it's a lot of money you get for the exploration treaty.

This kind of exploitation severely hinders the AI giving the player an enormous advantage that nullifies any effort you DEVs are making. Since I've only played AI (and I keep playing it everyday, hours and hours a day) I can tell a lot and I am VERY experienced with these things.

There is no way to make a working AI that doesn't cheat but that cheat mustn't be obvious.

At NORMAL level the AI should have no cheats at all and I think you could build 50 higher-than-normal levels of difficulty but the best solution is still to have the player fully customize every single aspect of the game for the AI (bonus-malus for economy, growth, tech research, diplomacy, etc. etc. each parameter individually and for each AI species).
Let the players find those balanced modifiers and only work on the AI decision-making process which is possibly 100 times harder to code.

AI should prioritize friendship with bordering species and should NEVER declare war if borders are not secure and if the chances of victory are not MORE THAN REASONABLE (even minor victory with temporary truce after capturing some assets is a good opportunity the AI shouldn't waste but its borders, economy and military must be secured first). This is the kind of decision-making the AI needs: long term strategy in diplomacy and warfare. It's the kind of routines that reduce the need for cheats and makes every AI and every game a different one, more enjoyable and challenging than the previous one.

I know the game is still fresh despite having been under development for so long and I also know this is a lot more complex than it looks, so I am not troubled. Out of 10 games, there are some games where I manage to pass the "breach point" and keep up playing... but the game appears somehow to have little to no challenge by the middle of the war age... like the AI was either super-performing in the beginning (which is the source of my initial rant) or it's just not keeping up if you manage to survive (this is because of its weakness in the decision-making process).

PS I already am playing the opt-in.

[mormegil]

Thanks for the feedback.

The exploration treaty issue is being addressed in 1.71 along with a bunch of diplomatic trade balancing, we have spend a lot of time worrying about the military AI sometimes these exploitable issues go unaddressed, but we are trying to address many of them as we speak.

We are always trying to make the AI smarter, and it can be a bit of a balancing act. But feedback like this makes it much easier to track down sticking points that most annoy the players.

Hope 1.7 is treating you better. More good stuff to come.


PS. Sepulchral

What turn were you at with that planet?

[GShock]

The major modifier that disturbs relations with another civ is the ideology... that is always present. I have seen the "you are a warmonger" only for minors shouldn't there be for majors as well? What about an extra modifier where "you are at war" could really make a difference? When you are at war you are weaker and it's when your neighbors should take advantage of you forcing you to really invest in diplomatic efforts (resources you need for war, devoted to avoid another war). This modifier should be as powerful as the ideology modifier.

I've seen the AI build starbases everywhere, including in my ZoC. To begin with, they are keen to ask me to remove mine but I couldn't find an option to ask them to remove theirs (it's apparently missing) so I often buy it (again the exploration treaty exploit helps a lot here) but... absent a ZoC treaty (open borders) shouldn't all sides be more heavily disturbed by the presence of armed ships, colonizers, constructors and scouts? Seems to me this factor should be significant: if you colonize in the area of influence of the AI this is basically a hostile act, you're stealing a planet which is a base close to their borders and this is EXTREMELY important in the initial phase where colonizing far planets to establish a big territory PREVENTS the AI from expanding in that area. The AI on the other hand, will colonize EVERYTHING IT CAN regardless of where that is without taking into account that if they colonize Mars (which I willingly don't colonize myself) in a few turns it will flip to my side and I get a FREE planet (this has to be addressed).

So I'm saying according to the situation, each of these ship types should build a different "-" in the relations. Open borders is important and too cheap. Is there a reason why the AI should allow my ships in its territory? Why is my territory so infested with ships of all factions going up and down as if this wasn't my territory but a free passage route and no-man's land?

Armed ships are potential danger (player attacks first declares war next, AI doesn't do so and that's another thing to address), colonizers I alrdy explained... they steal planets, constructors steal resources from the AI controlled area and scouts gather info for later potential attacks. Attack ships should be tolerated if the relations are good enough and a faction needs to pass through another faction's area to fight a war with a neighbor the first faction doesn't like.

So we need a bigger modifier here and that's for another reason: if a faction TOLERATES the presence of neutral ships in its territory without DEMANDING for their leave or for something CONSISTENT in return, all the other factions should see that faction as WEAK.

And weakness is a major modifier already and justly so: it's a Universe of sharks. No-man's land belongs to the first one who claims it with or without brute force. ;-)

[Oneeyed]

It seems that way because the AI build a lot of economic starbases and increases their population. Both are the way to victory in Galciv3. Try to get your population on every colony to 25-30 as soon as possible. And build multiple economic starbases for every colony (6 at best) and you will see the difference.

And btw build embassies asap. The increase your diplomatic standing and you don't have to bother with war declarations.

Originally posted by GShock:

Reinstalled after a year or so and I found no glitches and only a CTD. I have been playing intensively throughout the week and I can tell with huge spiral galaxy, as human, slow pace and slow tech, there simply is no way to stay alive against all the AI plus uncommon minor races.

The minor themselves are so ubered that their economy is non-existent: it's all industrial.

All they do is stay at their home planet with a huge fleet you need 2 hours of gaming just to reach the technology (and the numbers) to conquer them.

The big deal comes with the major races instead... I have something like 40 ships, all outdated but a big share of the galaxy with plenty of high techs... my neighbors fleets have 800 hit points and much stronger technology and while my economy is straight theirs is flourishing.

I haven't declared any war nor was I declared one but I see it's pointless to play because the AI is simply too ubered with a false economy and more than double my numbers. While the player does compromises and tries to keep a balanced economy with military and diplomacy, the AI can handle multiple wars at the same time and still defeat you consistently because there's something very wrong.

I'm talking out of experience, in this game I quit because it's pointless to play and in the 20 previous ones I really tried hard to win but it's simply impossible.

Look at the minor races: 12 ships, all medium sized and have ONE planet. Where do they take the technology if I have 20 planets with 50 research centers and I can't match their ship size?

Attack 40 (multiple fleets) vs 12 at their planet is not always a good idea... better destroy their shipyard as soon as it comes in space and then with transports ready you sacrifice all your 80 ships just to take that single planet... of a minor AI.

Do you realize it takes 100 turns just to do that? We're talking of a single planet of a single AI. (tech brokering and surrender disabled). Figure how one feels at imagining he has to do the same with 300 more planets in the whole galaxy. No, really... if you don't fix this I simply can't play so I'll have to uninstall again.

Sorry for the rant... but I paid for this game even before it was released and I haven't ever played it because of the bugs, the CTDs and everything else. Now it looks very good and it's challenging to find all those economies with a solid strategy but if the AI cheats this bad it's simply not worth of my time and, sadly, of the money I spent.