Massive hulls: specialize for fleets or stand-alone platforms?

[CyPunk]

So, despite loads of game-time, I have never actually gotten to building massive/huge hulled ships before. Just never needed them, my medium ships were enough to win, with the occasional large (even managed a game with all attack ships being tiny hulls coupled with fleet support and some medium escorts - a topic of debate I saw here once; the AI seemed pretty weak militarily this game though).

To the point, for variety, I prioritized massive hulls in my most recent game.
Before I invest time in designing, and then game-time in building, a huge ship: does the same "fleet" logic apply to massive hulled ships. Or are they generally capable of handling everything themselves? I understand fleet logic is always valuable, so the question is more whether it is neccessary with huge ships. Given the cost (esp. a massive escort with lots of extra capacity) it seems a more balanced ship design would be wiser from a production standpoint, but is it wise from a military perspective? (thus far the AI is no threat in current game so can't really design for "my enemy", which calls for balanced ships, but difficulty level is "incredible", so they could catch up esp. given galaxy layout prohibits pre-emptive strikes for awhile longer).

[starrynite120]

I've only gotten huge hulls once, but I made them a balanced design and they worked very well. Threw carriers and self healing hulls on there, broad defenses, then went hard on one weapon type and soft on another. Several of those crushed the Krynn.

[rog214]

Some fleet logic applies. GC3 fires all ship weapons at 1 target, so a huge ship with an offense of 600 fires it all at 1 fighter with 40 hp. So don't use them solo if the enemy is going hard carrier/fighters. Aside from that, they have so much space you can do whatever you want.

I found that for the logistics cost, I prefer to use small/tiny ships for fleet support modules (especially jamming). That way you can save your space to build a huge ship that's more survivable and deals the damage to justify its logistics cost.

In my experience, you don't really"need" huge hulls, but the Ai beelines for them almost every time, after a while you may need for offense per ship to kill them faster than a bunch of lesser well armed mediums would. The HP starts to matter when ships are dealing 150-200+ per attack as well.

[CyPunk]

Thanks both of you. Carriers are also something I have never bothered with! And I have yet to encounter and AI doing them either. Though I am a fan of Iconian tech and racing to living ships, so tactical repair is covered.

Originally posted by rog214:

Some fleet logic applies. GC3 fires all ship weapons at 1 target

I was more or less aware of this. However, what then when the ship has two weapons systems (as starrynite recommended) with different rates of fire? Say heavy on missiles with a small complement of railguns? In the past I got in the habit of putting some decent (but only a couple) railguns on my escorts, so while they are in close taking damage they could mop up any tiny/small crafts so my big ships do not waste time on them (still working on exact right balance though - between range on missiles competing with tactical drives on escorts to get them in range before too many missiles fly).

Originally posted by rog214:

I found that for the logistics cost, I prefer to use small/tiny ships for fleet support modules (especially jamming). That way you can save your space to build a huge ship that's more survivable and deals the damage to justify its logistics cost.

So similar to what I do now (used to use cargo hulls when I started, but with the right capacity boosts a small hull can carry all I need).

Overall I am definately leaning against bothering with these massive hulls again, but fun to try once (and the last push came from an artifact anyhow, so no waste of research). I'll play around and at least make some pretty ships.

[Horemvore]

Multiple Weapon ships fire in salvos, Weapon A for round 1, then Weapon B for round 2, then back to Weapon A ect.

[CyPunk]

Originally posted by Horemvore:

Multiple Weapon ships fire in salvos, Weapon A for round 1, then Weapon B for round 2, then back to Weapon A ect.

Ok, thanks; I know if designed such a ship and paid attention to the battle stats, I could have learned that myself, so appreciate you humouring my laziness.

[ColorsFade]

Same fleet logic applies, which is why I build four-ship fleets of Huge hulls.

Here's what I do when building a fleet in Large/Huge (same rules apply).

Escorts always get attacked first. So I dedicate one ship to pure defense. It has this layout:

• Defense (Shield/Armor/Chaff)
  
• Sensors
  
• Fleet-Wide assistance tech
  
• Self-Healing tech
  
• Engines (of course)

This ship gets Sensors (to range 5-10, depending on hull size, shrinkage, and need) and it also gets all the fleet-wide boosts. So if I have tech for boosting fleet-wide Kinetic damage, this ship gets it. And on a Huge Hull, I might throw in a Survey Module, in case a Galactic Event pops late in the game.

If I am fighting multiple wars and my enemies are all using different offense, then this ship gets multiple defensive types in a balanced configuration. If most of my enemies use two primary types of weapons, I stockpile it with only those two defenses.

My other three Huge Hull ships in the fleet (or the remainder of ships in a Large Hull fleet) all go offense, no defense. Generally this is Kinetic and Missile tech for me because those resources are more plentiful in maps, and I require resources for the augmentation tech.

Each one of these offensive ships gets whatever single-ship assistance tech I have, like "Armor Piercing", or "Rapid Reload". These are usually the things that require resources. So when I put these ships together, I make sure they get the same Life Support and Engine count as the Escort ship above, and then I just load up on offensive weapons and assistance tech.

The fleet is a 4-ship fleet that is unstoppable. The Escort takes all the damage, and then self-heals. The three offensive ships chew up everything.

If you've never had to use a Huge Hull ship before, I'm guessing you've never played on a very big map. On the small and medium maps you can get away with smaller ships. But on the two or three largest maps, the Huge hulls are often the difference-maker.

[abonamente]

Originally posted by Forschungsfüchse:

[...]are they generally capable of handling everything themselves?
[...]never needed them, my medium ships were enough to win, with the occasional large

That answered to that. Only you can know the right answer, which can be different for each of your games.

However, as a matter of personaI preferences and play style, I always specialize warships for fleet work, even the largest ones.

My reasons:

That makes them perfectly capable of defeating everything and everyone, no matter what configuration their fleets/warships are, with minimal weaponry/defences on each of my ships, saving space for engines (on each one) and sensors (on the command&support ship). That results in flexibility and (huge) convenience:

- I don't care how many factions I fight at a time, where are they and what kind of weaponry/defences they have (which simplifies things a lot)
- one all-seeing, all-reaching fleet is much easier to find and move than 4-10 discrete warships

Bottom line: against the AI, to build my first huge hulls fleet is a strategic win - no need to click hundreds of turns more, unless I really want to (it might happen, just to test stuff).

That is true because it coincides with reaching other self-defined goals (except diplomacy, trade, tourism and capstones, I finished the research tree; influence over at least 51% galaxy; except military, better power graphs than the rest of the world combined; my fleets can defend 100% my territory even in a world war; while doing so, they can also attack any corner of the galaxy in like 1-2 turns).

[abonamente]

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

Same fleet logic applies, which is why I build four-ship fleets of Huge hulls.[...]

Saw that after posting. It explains in detail exactly why I prefer fleets too.

(except fleet and ships specific configuration/role, where I have different preferences)

[CyPunk]

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

If you've never had to use a Huge Hull ship before, I'm guessing you've never played on a very big map. On the small and medium maps you can get away with smaller ships. But on the two or three largest maps, the Huge hulls are often the difference-maker.

Hard to say: my stats say I mostly play on Huge, followed by Gigantic, this being my recent favourite (3rd place Large). I have tried Immense only once; was fine but once I was on a role planet management got to be too much (and I actually enjoy parts of that, and managing myself).

So equally difficult to say why I have not needed the huge hulls; perhaps as Abonamente says; just never matched my play style. Self analysis is difficult but I would say I focus heavily on tech, including the support modules Ragic mentioned, and less on manufacturing power. Thus I get a pretty decent power lead and it is in my interest to go on the offensive, since there is a chance my manufacturing will not be able to keep up with the AI (at least at higher difficulties).

Or perhaps simply because I followed your guide so well at the start I have never needed to adapt further! :-P (which of course means eventually, if I have stopped learning, it will come back to bite me).

Originally posted by abonamente:

Originally posted by Forschungsfüchse:

[...]are they generally capable of handling everything themselves?
[...]never needed them, my medium ships were enough to win, with the occasional large

That makes them perfectly capable of defeating everything and everyone, no matter what configuration their fleets/warships are, with minimal weaponry/defences on each of my ships, saving space for engines (on each one) and sensors (on the command&support ship). That results in flexibility and (huge) convenience:

I do like that approach; I try to not only have self-defined goals, but self-defined contraints. I should make balancing weapons on my ships one of those, as in "reality" (or future reality) ships are designed in such ways. Yes, they have some specialization, but not to the extent we specialize ships in this game.

[CyPunk]

And again: appreciate all the ideas even if I cannot acknowledge every one of them.

[CyPunk]

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

But on the two or three largest maps, the Huge hulls are often the difference-maker.

Next game I will try one of the top three sizes and reduce planet frequency though, following this idea.

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by Forschungsfüchse:

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

But on the two or three largest maps, the Huge hulls are often the difference-maker.

Next game I will try one of the top three sizes and reduce planet frequency though, following this idea.

The biggest issue with the three largest maps is distance. And for that you need engines, and the thus the larger hull sizes.

If you're going for a peaceful win on one of the biggest maps, then a Huge hull isn't a big deal. Make lots of small ships and boost your power score, and use Diplomacy and win through Research/Ascension/Alliance/Whatever.

But if you're going to war on one of those bigger maps, then it's tedious to move a Medium or Large fleet around. Even with Stellar Folding, those ships just can't hold much gear. So it requires a lot of turns to move across a map, wage war, etc.

But with a Huge Hull Fleet, and Stellar Folding, you can get a fleet with 200+ moves per turn. *That* is how you wage effective war on those maps. You can jump from planet to planet, wiping out shipyards and clearing planetary garrisons, all in a single turn. Then your Transports, with 200-300 moves, can swoop in and take over.

I've cleared out entire factions of 20+ planets in a single turn with Huge Hull fleets, Huge Hull Transports, and Stellar Folding Engines.

And it's quite satisfying...

[starrynite120]

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

Originally posted by Forschungsfüchse:

Next game I will try one of the top three sizes and reduce planet frequency though, following this idea.

The biggest issue with the three largest maps is distance. And for that you need engines, and the thus the larger hull sizes.

If you're going for a peaceful win on one of the biggest maps, then a Huge hull isn't a big deal. Make lots of small ships and boost your power score, and use Diplomacy and win through Research/Ascension/Alliance/Whatever.

But if you're going to war on one of those bigger maps, then it's tedious to move a Medium or Large fleet around. Even with Stellar Folding, those ships just can't hold much gear. So it requires a lot of turns to move across a map, wage war, etc.

But with a Huge Hull Fleet, and Stellar Folding, you can get a fleet with 200+ moves per turn. *That* is how you wage effective war on those maps. You can jump from planet to planet, wiping out shipyards and clearing planetary garrisons, all in a single turn. Then your Transports, with 200-300 moves, can swoop in and take over.

I've cleared out entire factions of 20+ planets in a single turn with Huge Hull fleets, Huge Hull Transports, and Stellar Folding Engines.

And it's quite satisfying...

Enjoy while it lasts, Crusade is coming! All engines (I think) will cost antimatter, so you won't be able to have a lot of fast moving ships. Seems like Crusade is going to limit what exactly you can do with ships by requiring resources (which are being changed to yields you get per turn), so it will be more difficult to build ridicullous ships.

[CyPunk]

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

Originally posted by Forschungsfüchse:

Next game I will try one of the top three sizes and reduce planet frequency though, following this idea.

The biggest issue with the three largest maps is distance. And for that you need engines, and the thus the larger hull sizes.

I can see that; I already get irritated at mass and cost even when I reach hyperwarp. But I agree that speed matters allot.

Originally posted by starrynite120:

Enjoy while it lasts, Crusade is coming! All engines (I think) will cost antimatter, so you won't be able to have a lot of fast moving ships. Seems like Crusade is going to limit what exactly you can do with ships by requiring resources (which are being changed to yields you get per turn), so it will be more difficult to build ridicullous ships.

I was rather hoping that "antimatter" comment in the Dairy was a typo. I understand reworking the game; but changing the base use of a resources seems a bit mean to long-time users (who will keep trying to use the wrong resource for the wrong purpose).

[mrmike_49]

Originally posted by ColorsFade:

Originally posted by Forschungsfüchse:

Next game I will try one of the top three sizes and reduce planet frequency though, following this idea.

The biggest issue with the three largest maps is distance. And for that you need engines, and the thus the larger hull sizes.

If you're going for a peaceful win on one of the biggest maps, then a Huge hull isn't a big deal. Make lots of small ships and boost your power score, and use Diplomacy and win through Research/Ascension/Alliance/Whatever.

But if you're going to war on one of those bigger maps, then it's tedious to move a Medium or Large fleet around. Even with Stellar Folding, those ships just can't hold much gear. So it requires a lot of turns to move across a map, wage war, etc.

But with a Huge Hull Fleet, and Stellar Folding, you can get a fleet with 200+ moves per turn. *That* is how you wage effective war on those maps. You can jump from planet to planet, wiping out shipyards and clearing planetary garrisons, all in a single turn. Then your Transports, with 200-300 moves, can swoop in and take over.

I've cleared out entire factions of 20+ planets in a single turn with Huge Hull fleets, Huge Hull Transports, and Stellar Folding Engines.

And it's quite satisfying...

Yep!
And once your fleet goes thru and massacres the AI navy, you can split up one or two fleets into individual ships and use them to kill any and all shipyards as they are built, while taking rest of fleets onto next "dance partner"/victim