What patch changed the AI to cheat so much?

[revjwh]

I took a break from AoW3 - before the break I played on King AI (7 opponents) on an x-large map (surface only) with no cities (we all had to settle) and average everything but no dwellings, roads or wandering monsters. I won 80% of the time and the 20% losses were due to poor starting positions usually.

Now, I've started playing again and the AI clearly cheats in huge amounts compared to the old "King" setting. I haven't won a game yet despite streamlining my playstyle and producing top tier units as fast as possible. The AI will not only have top tier - but be able to settle new cities, defend them, while sending a steady stream of (for example) Golems and Flame Tanks at me (my 2 hero stacks in my last game by about turn 50 had destroyed 8 Golems! with 8 more coming at me)....

I've also noticed the AI never makes peace or makes it only to break it shortly thereafter early game. They never ever make an alliance - even if I have them admiring me (800+) and of the same alignment ..... and even if I offer gold and mana. I had a game where I had 12 cities and multiple manticore stacks - most of the AI had at least 12 cities - but they all decided to attack me instead including people of my alignment who admired me one moment and then declared war a few turns later.

Finally, I've noticed that if I start with a race that likes Mtns, Temperate or Forests (forget designation) the morale in my cities (unless I'm a rogue) is always far far better than starting with any other race. For example, I like to play Orc warlords but I never start (not even my capital) with barren land around me. If I start human, I almost always have high morale in every city before I even construct anything.

I'm curious about people's experiences. Does anyone else play XL epic games (well, they used to be epic - now the AI just mobs me by turn 50 from all sides even if they share my alignment and I treat them well.....)

I don't mind losing - in fact the first 3-4 losses I put down to being rusty. I've played TBS strategy since the 70s and the only games I usually can't win is if the AI cheats by a staggering level on the highest difficulties. The other AoW games I always played on Emperor but it was clear with AoW3 that I wasn't going to be able to unless I played with cheesy tactics (like immediately sending my 2 hero stacks to clear out the capital of my closest AI opponent.)

Now - there isn't the fun of building an empire - it's just a war game that seems shaped by the rush tactics of the AI or cheese tactics on my part.

It's not really challenging - it's just not fun. I'm pretty much ready to rage quit. Prior to whatever patch did this, the AI on King gave a good challenge. Lord difficulty is too easy but the curve/spike that is now implemented seems out of whack.

[Dr_K [Rosencrantz]]

Originally posted by revjwh:

I took a break from AoW3 - before the break I played on King AI (7 opponents) on an x-large map (surface only) with no cities (we all had to settle) and average everything but no dwellings, roads or wandering monsters. I won 80% of the time and the 20% losses were due to poor starting positions usually.

Now, I've started playing again and the AI clearly cheats in huge amounts compared to the old "King" setting. I haven't won a game yet despite streamlining my playstyle and producing top tier units as fast as possible. The AI will not only have top tier - but be able to settle new cities, defend them, while sending a steady stream of (for example) Golems and Flame Tanks at me (my 2 hero stacks in my last game by about turn 50 had destroyed 8 Golems! with 8 more coming at me)....

Assuming you are using the same settings, you are only giving the AI a bigger advantage over you. They can settle, research, and produce faster than you, and you give them no resistance with wanderers and no aid to you with no cities. I'd suggest turning wandering independents on at least average to cull the AI in the early game, so their advantage isn't as pronounced by mid/late game.

Are you playing on normal game speed?

Originally posted by revjwh:

I've also noticed the AI never makes peace or makes it only to break it shortly thereafter early game. They never ever make an alliance - even if I have them admiring me (800+) and of the same alignment ..... and even if I offer gold and mana. I had a game where I had 12 cities and multiple manticore stacks - most of the AI had at least 12 cities - but they all decided to attack me instead including people of my alignment who admired me one moment and then declared war a few turns later.

This I think might have to do with Pure Good/Evil alignment. (Just a guess). I've had issues with AI of extreme alignment flip flopping on peace vs war when their alignment switches from pure good to good back to pure good. I don't think this is a bug, but it seems like very strange behavior.

Do you usually end up pure good or evil, and/or are the enemies that are fickle pure good/evil?

Originally posted by revjwh:

I'm curious about people's experiences. Does anyone else play XL epic games (well, they used to be epic - now the AI just mobs me by turn 50 from all sides even if they share my alignment and I treat them well.....)

I don't mind losing - in fact the first 3-4 losses I put down to being rusty. I've played TBS strategy since the 70s and the only games I usually can't win is if the AI cheats by a staggering level on the highest difficulties. The other AoW games I always played on Emperor but it was clear with AoW3 that I wasn't going to be able to unless I played with cheesy tactics (like immediately sending my 2 hero stacks to clear out the capital of my closest AI opponent.)

Now - there isn't the fun of building an empire - it's just a war game that seems shaped by the rush tactics of the AI or cheese tactics on my part.

Comparing to previous AoW games is not necessarily a good comparison as the AI rarely built T4 units, and they were relatively much more powerful in those games, which gave the player a big advantage in late game. Also, the AI originally was very similar to the one in AoW2/SM (excluding the T4 building), but that's changed. One of the recent patches greatly increased the AI's aggression without changing the normal bonuses that they get so playing on Emperor and King is more difficult. So the only cheating the AI does is with resource bonuses to make up for not being as strategic as a human player.

I usually play large map games with 5-7 opponents King difficulty. I've never had to rush the AI to win when starting with settler and no cities. The only difference it seems in your game settings (besides map size and # players) and mine is the wandering units. As I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure the wandering units slow the AI's advance, especially with respect to settling new cities. Game's I've played without them usually see the AI out producing me.

Compounding the resource bonuses and the happiness bonuses, with unhindered expansion means that the AI will likely be able to field a much larger army than you will be able to. This is probably what you are experiencing.

[Ericridge]

The cheats that King get is still the same as before. With bonus casting points removed something.

Only thing that changed is the AI being made smarter. There was an patch several months ago that made AIs tougher. They now defend and attack much better than they did before in the past.

AIs love to go after the weakest guy, and as it turned out you are the weakest one and so they dogpile you grabbing the free cities from you before tackling real foes. You can see this behavior by making an alliance and observing them. Weak ais gets dogpiled by all other ais if other ais have contact with said weak ai that is.

Another huge blunder you did is making it so that there's no wanderers. AIs not having to worry about wanderers = free to ICS like a plague.

And a human player playing humans that settle in a good location that has succeeded in constructing a hospital in that settlement = metropolis by turn 20-30 depending on growth boosters in it's radius. I should know, that's how I get my eternal city quest reward! Uh I hope I remember number of turns correctly. I think I had Eternal City as early as turn 24 but my capital had a bunch of Great farms in its radius.. :P 26-30 turn is more likely on a normal start.

And if the frontline against you is full to the brim with AI troops? Go for the backlines and falcon punch the AI from the behind if you don't feel like having all those battles. Cities behind the frontline tend to be lightly defended because they're funneling all the units to the frontline.

To be honest, its the improved AI patch that is basically doing you in at the moment. King used to be too easy and bad at fighting in the past. Armies of dwarf prospectors versus golems.. it reminded me of ewoks vs Imperial chicken walkers >_>

Just put the wanderers back to normal. It'll help you and slow down the AI abit so you have time to do something. Don't believe me? Have fun reading the thread xD

http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/first-megabattle/

[sikbok]

Posting to confirm that we did not make the AI cheat more.
It did get some love so it should be doing a better job in general.

[Vlerk]

Have not played the game for weeks but agree with OP, it was a constant frustration with the AI still mass producing T4 and moving in stacks of 3..no matter how many units i pushed the AI allways seems to have equal numbers or more. (Knight difficulty).
And the fact Hero's are so stupid weak (2 hits by a T4) and its over, then losing inventory and equipped items everytime your Hero get pwnd.
Equipped items should be locked from dropping, no point using item forge and give 4-5-6 hero's items, or it will be a looong game spending time gathering your items.

And items you don't need or use should be able to sell at Trading posts, for some extra cash or mana.. now trading post are just a resource like any other.

[Victor van Void]

It seems to me that even at squire level as a casual player I don't stand a chance against the AI. (I did, when I played months ago.)
It really takes all the fun out of it.

[Ericridge]

Originally posted by Evolutionist:

It seems to me that even at squire level as a casual player I don't stand a chance against the AI. (I did, when I played months ago.)
It really takes all the fun out of it.

If you are getting overun by the AIs on squire, there might be a rather fundamental problem with your tactics. Just how are you playing?

Because from when I last checked on Knight level the AI was sleeping in a coma on Knight difficulty.
Just.. how? I can't even imagine it at all.

[revjwh]

Thanks for the replies.

The polished AI must be making better use of the King level advantages than before - which is cool.

I will try Lord and see how it goes from there. Thanks!

[Victor van Void]

Originally posted by Ericridge:

Originally posted by Evolutionist:

It seems to me that even at squire level as a casual player I don't stand a chance against the AI. (I did, when I played months ago.)
It really takes all the fun out of it.

If you are getting overun by the AIs on squire, there might be a rather fundamental problem with your tactics. Just how are you playing?

Because from when I last checked on Knight level the AI was sleeping in a coma on Knight difficulty.
Just.. how? I can't even imagine it at all.

Yes of course I'm not very good at AOW3, but it was sufficient enough to win one or two matches even in at king level a few months ago. I completely agree something had to be done with the AI for the higher difficulties.

I like to play defensive and research a lot. I have a feeling that someone right now is saying this is the wrong strategy - you have to rush and hit your enemies as soon as possible. Right?
If so, I wonder why you can research so much or with the DLC research is ancouraged as an empire quest. Or why I can build so many things if I don't have the time.

I tried the one of the two new scenarios (empire building, 7 players) in squire mode 3 times. I get either wiped out very soon, or one of the NPCs is occupying a seal and still has enough power to wipe you out if you try the same. If I attack, I get wiped out, even with a load of tier 4 units. If I sit still, I get wiped out. If I try to win any other way, I get wiped out.
It seems there is only one right strategy and AOW3 doesn't encourage experimenting.

[sikbok]

Originally posted by Evolutionist:

I like to play defensive and research a lot. I have a feeling that someone right now is saying this is the wrong strategy - you have to rush and hit your enemies as soon as possible. Right?

Imho you can play defensively.

The trick is - especially against AI, more so at higher levels - is to ensure you do not get behind economically. One way of doing that is applying pressure to your opponent, which is what I assume the posters above are suggesting. There are other ways: taking neutral towns, founding your own, etc.

[Love to hate]

Originally posted by Evolutionist:

It seems to me that even at squire level as a casual player I don't stand a chance against the AI. (I did, when I played months ago.)
It really takes all the fun out of it.

It is impossible to loose on squire level of difficulty even if you want, IMPOSSIBLE!

[sikbok]

Originally posted by Cold Dead Eyes:

Originally posted by Evolutionist:

It seems to me that even at squire level as a casual player I don't stand a chance against the AI. (I did, when I played months ago.)
It really takes all the fun out of it.

It is impossible to loose on squire level of difficulty even if you want, IMPOSSIBLE!

Iirc a Squire level AI doesn't get any bonuses and can only plan a single offensive mission at a time.

That still allows a loss if AI has a larger army and targets your throne city which has your leader in it. And then there's death by spawner. I can imagine turtling hard until undead dragons start roaming the map might be a bit of a bother.

[Love to hate]

sikbok, did you beat AI on Emperor?

[Love to hate]

Why people are crying "AI is strong!"???Cause too many idiots in our time...Where are hardcore players? I think, players couldnt visit toilet without developers in future.

[sikbok]

Originally posted by Cold Dead Eyes:

sikbok, did you beat AI on Emperor?

I did at least once, but iirc that was pre-patch.
Last game I finished I did trash a King AI, as a Rogue if memory serves me right.

[Victor van Void]

Originally posted by Cold Dead Eyes:

Originally posted by Evolutionist:

It seems to me that even at squire level as a casual player I don't stand a chance against the AI. (I did, when I played months ago.)
It really takes all the fun out of it.

It is impossible to loose on squire level of difficulty even if you want, IMPOSSIBLE!

Relax.
I am aware that this is not a problem of the game but me playing the way I played before. Now some things have changed, which is the original topic.
Also I have noticed, that indeed the situation seems different in random maps as oposed to scenarios. I play a random map with 3 Opponents and have no problem at all. Also I just started to play with the golden realms DLC and tried one of the new scenarios first which maybe wasn't a good idea.
As I said, I am a casual player and for us it takes a bit longer to get "fit" for the new stuff.