Magical items, to craft, or not to craft.

[Narrator]

Greetings to all those interested in magical items and crafts!

I thought I would ask this question, which may or may not have been asked before.

Shall we be able to overcome the 5 point limit put upon the arcane forges? Shall we ever be able to create a master piece, worthy of our great leaders? Or are we doomed to scour the lands for that one final dungeon in hopes for such a powerful item instead of more prisoners?

Will we perhaps be able to choose between items and more units? as has been done with the tribute system from vassals?

All that and more, let us speak of the pros and cons!

[Ferrus Animus]

Vassals do offer the occassional hard quest with an item reward.

And while I generally prefer a MoM-like approach where coming endgame you were able to craft items on par with the best you could find (limited by your magic schools), I think the current system is in a good place for game balance.

The current system allows the equipping of heroes with good items, while still offering the reward of better item through site-clearing, which does take some military effort. A higher point limit on the Forge would devalue those found items to the question if they give you an ability outside the forging options.
And given how the economic effort to craft an item is not too impactful, that'd either require a lot of changes to make it a functional part of the game or simply lead to dungeon diving becoming a far less important part of strategy.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

I would love to be able to build tools worthy of effort.
Right now i coudnt care less what my heroes wear, it is all crap.

That said i dont think it will ever be added.
Power fantasy is what thriump has been avoiding like the plague.
Pity it is the power fantasy that makes me long for age of wonders 2.

Fun memory:
Age of wonders 2 shadow magic item forge:
lichblade:
First strike.
Double strike.
Life steal.

[Gloweye]

Point is that the Item Forge abilities are balanced around there being a 5 point max. That said, I still hope for a Mystical City Upgrade one day that will increase the limit by 1 or 2. More that that's to overpowered I think.

Also, no Dungeon will ever give Items - they're limited to troops only - best item sources are Ziggurat, Castle of the Lich King, Lost City, with an honorable mention to Sunken City(which has the most varying rewards)

[Ferrus Animus]

I also do like that the limited power of the items makes me think of them more as a tool to improve my heroes, than the other way around.

[Narrator]

But surely there could be something done to the crafting of items?

For example, if you go over the point limit, the cost goes up drasticly, with perhaps an upkeep cost of gems and or gold. Perhaps even casting points, because of the magic needed to sustain the item. This would allow for heroes to become a larger threat on the battlefield. Because they hardly gain stats during level-ups, unless you invest in that.


But, as a side note. Why not open the crafting to units aswell? So you can add a single item to a unit? The possibilities are endless, even if the cap remains 5 for items for units.

[Warlord]

I love the swag hunt. With over 110 hours of gametime I've yet to create a single forge item. Most players agree with the swag hunt too, with only 21% of all owners having the forge item achievement.

[Etherlight]

I only forge items for specific purposes. Like if I'm playing Theocrats or Dreadnaughts, I'd like to make a repair kit for every non Dreadnaught hero to keep my machine repaired. I also find Charm, Seduce, Seeker, items quite useful and easy to make. but I do prefer the current, that you can make item for a specific purpose that you lack, but still reward advanturing and clearing sites with more powerful artifacts.

[Narrator]

I see many valid points, and I would agree that it is satisfying to find good loot in treasure sites. But what if you were playing without treasure sites? Surely then you could beef the item crafting a smudgeon?

[tvance52]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

I would love to be able to build tools worthy of effort.
Right now i coudnt care less what my heroes wear, it is all crap.

That said i dont think it will ever be added.
Power fantasy is what thriump has been avoiding like the plague.
Pity it is the power fantasy that makes me long for age of wonders 2.

Fun memory:
Age of wonders 2 shadow magic item forge:
lichblade:
First strike.
Double strike.
Life steal.

If you go further, back AOW 1 was even more so. A single high-level hero could/would solo every map against the AI. While AOW 2 heroes were much stronger than AOW 3, I remember losing on the first real map (against Yaka and the Tigrans?) because the main character to roll through after a few level ups.

OP, I'm guessing the trend is for multiplayer reasons. Single unit spell buffs also were moved to be single battle only, I presume so that heroes wouldn't enter battle already beyond what multiple T4's could handle.

I'm would think we won't see that unless mod tools are release. AOW used to have a strong mod community (heck, the "Age of Wonders Heaven" site is still up and people still post there after 16 years).

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by tvance52:

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

I would love to be able to build tools worthy of effort.
Right now i coudnt care less what my heroes wear, it is all crap.

That said i dont think it will ever be added.
Power fantasy is what thriump has been avoiding like the plague.
Pity it is the power fantasy that makes me long for age of wonders 2.

Fun memory:
Age of wonders 2 shadow magic item forge:
lichblade:
First strike.
Double strike.
Life steal.

If you go further, back AOW 1 was even more so. A single high-level hero could/would solo every map against the AI. While AOW 2 heroes were much stronger than AOW 3, I remember losing on the first real map (against Yaka and the Tigrans?) because the main character to roll through after a few level ups.

Good times.
But the reason i prefeer age of wonders 2 is the domain system.
I also like the fact my leader was different then my heroes.
You know leaders and generals.
Instead of generals and generals.
That is what i dislike about age of wonders 1 and 3.
You leader is just an other hero.

[Burden of Brine]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

You know leaders and generals.
Instead of generals and generals.
That is what i dislike about age of wonders 1 and 3.
You leader is just an other hero.

Personally I much prefer the AoW 1/3 ways leaders work. In Age of Wonders 2/SM the leader might as well have been a magic crystal, due to having terrible combat stats and best used by being hidden away someplace safe, compared to the leaders of 1 and 3 that are out there in the thick of things and actually doing something.

And as mighty as the Wizard Kings might have been, apparently they had nowhere near as good of a grasp of their territory as the leaders in AoW3 have, considering those of the third era doesn't have to be holed up in a wizard tower just to remain capable of empire-wide spellcasting. Funny how that works.

[Leto]

everyday have to read about how shadow magic was better in this or that..
boring guys.

[PXR5]

Originally posted by tvance52:

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

I would love to be able to build tools worthy of effort.
Right now i coudnt care less what my heroes wear, it is all crap.

That said i dont think it will ever be added.
Power fantasy is what thriump has been avoiding like the plague.
Pity it is the power fantasy that makes me long for age of wonders 2.

Fun memory:
Age of wonders 2 shadow magic item forge:
lichblade:
First strike.
Double strike.
Life steal.

If you go further, back AOW 1 was even more so. A single high-level hero could/would solo every map against the AI. While AOW 2 heroes were much stronger than AOW 3, I remember losing on the first real map (against Yaka and the Tigrans?) because the main character to roll through after a few level ups.

OP, I'm guessing the trend is for multiplayer reasons. Single unit spell buffs also were moved to be single battle only, I presume so that heroes wouldn't enter battle already beyond what multiple T4's could handle.

I'm would think we won't see that unless mod tools are release. AOW used to have a strong mod community (heck, the "Age of Wonders Heaven" site is still up and people still post there after 16 years).

I think its a pity multyplayer ruined that. When you look at the achievments 8.6 people started a mp game and about 4 procent won a mp game. Making me think that most players are sp players. Balancing a game to please about 10 procent of your player base is a strange decission.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Sir Toine:

everyday have to read about how shadow magic was better in this or that..
boring guys.

That is because it is a classic they try to beat.
Age of wonders 3 has many improvements over age of wonders shadow magic.
Unfortantly a few bad design choices prevents it from gaining the same appeal.
When you make magic irrelevant in a serries where magic was paramount.
When you remove the shadow realm(a place full of potential and dangers, and faster troop movement)
When you reduce the race count(see thing we most nagged about)
From a serries that was know of said things.
It tents to make people a bit dispointed.
I could go on and on about how the lack of perminate enchantments or the lack of area of effect stratagic spells or the lack of the ability to destroy mine's etc, etc, etc.
If it wasnt for age of wonders 3 being so good in the other area's i woudnt even play it.
What age of wonders 3 could have been....sigh.

In before sikbok thread derailment warning.

[Ferrus Animus]

The issue with unit enchantments and full crafting is that it allows the creation of units that are far and beyond the usuual range of stacks.

I remember that AoW1 game where I head a leader with a escort of 7 possessed Syrons buffed to max stats and only vulnerable to physical damage and even there only taking 50%.

Simlar stuff could be done in AoW2 with heroes, powerful items and such.
And in most similar games from Master of Magic to the Warlock series this is possible too.

And while it is fun, there is another common thread in all these games: The AI falters before that.
When you achieve the creation of such an über-unit you have won and are unstoppable. The only games that even dares to oppose you then are the Warlock games and they do that by throwing similar ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ power units at you, which results in the fact that if you don't have one, you lose. And if you do, you win.

This isn't really a fun and engaging experience, especially not for a game like AoW3 that is about engaging tactical battles. And that's not just for MP, but also for SP.

Now I do think that there could be a way to return some of these aspects in a way that doesn't disrupt the game, but I see why that hasn't been the case.