Underground Spawning

[havok]

Just curious if its been my bad luck the last three random maps I've played or if something changed since the new DLC. My issue is no players seem to be spawning underground at games start and the underground is basically sparcely (at best) spawning resource artifacts of any kind to interact with or seem settle worthy. Seemingly 80 percent dirt walls with a few roads mazing around no matter how I mess with geographic settings. mind you this is single player 5 - 8 players on huge map. So in the long run its like a big useless void of dirt.

[sikbok]

Hi havok,


Iirc the only change in the patch accompanying Golden Realms was a fix for a race - I forgot which one - to spawn aboveground more. No changes to generation rules.

However, what is generated depends on the presence of players on the layer - i.e. undergound, aboveground - and the amount of players on the layer. So, if no players spawn there there will be less stuff. Picking a race that's likely to end up underground - gobbo's and the beareded people - in maps with underground is likely the easiest route to make that layer more interesting.

In addition, we are looking at changes to make the underground and which players end up underground such that the underground becomes more interesting. We hope we can do something there for the next big patch.

[havok]

Thanks for staying as involved here as you do.

Yea some of that stuff you mentioned would be cool. I'm a guy that likes to set up cultural scenarios in my mind that will work for random play. Setting all the the (Classicly) bad guys with at least one Evil specialization the good guys the same etc... (Though that rarely seems to guide their future on alignment and limits specialization use.) But getting the underground more involved on a race level is definately a plus in my book. Though I've played this game for years its still one of the coolest things to find a door down and see the world beneath for the first time or vice versa.

Next we need a cloud level where we go up to do battle with the Gods.

only half joking

[Shaithias]

I like to rpg dark elves, is there any love for the dark elf rpgers coming sikbok? Please?

[PXR5]

Originally posted by sikbok:

Hi havok,


Iirc the only change in the patch accompanying Golden Realms was a fix for a race - I forgot which one - to spawn aboveground more. No changes to generation rules.

However, what is generated depends on the presence of players on the layer - i.e. undergound, aboveground - and the amount of players on the layer. So, if no players spawn there there will be less stuff. Picking a race that's likely to end up underground - gobbo's and the beareded people - in maps with underground is likely the easiest route to make that layer more interesting.

In addition, we are looking at changes to make the underground and which players end up underground such that the underground becomes more interesting. We hope we can do something there for the next big patch.

I don't know Skibok, I've had some really strange undergrounds consisting of only coridors with almost no sites while starting underground. Another strange thing is that when I put the slider of undigable walls completely to the left it does the inverse and almost the entire underground is filled with undigable walls. The goodie sites have decreased drasticly since v 1.00. I almost always play Dwarf (I think I have about 400 played and 80% is Dwarves) and while I used to restart maps when starting above ground (don't like that burning shiny thing) I now almost dread to start underground. I know it's all anecdotal but something feels off.

[GhengisFarb]

I really wish the map generator would treat the underground the SAME as the above ground. Same density of sites and use the complete map. It's up to the players to explore or fight for the surface regardless of whether we all started on the surface or not.

[Lampros]

Yeap - the underground needs to be bigger - with more stuff. Right now, it's way too much volcanic walls.

[havok]

OK so I did some debug mode investigating and there is certainly bias and a lack of generation in underground. But I'm not sure its not by design.
I ran a random Map random 8 player game and revealed map. I was like Woah they do use the underground as 3 players had been generated there. Then I noticed they were all dwarf.
So I ran another game and selected 4 of eight players as dwarf, again 3 of the four dwarven were the only underground dwellers and the army that was mine (also dwarf) was on the surface.
So then I ran a game of 8 all Human. All of them were above ground and the underground was basically a a small region in the corner of resources for whomever had that corner in the start its almost like a secret underground stash for them.
So then I ran a game of 8 Goblin. It took extremely longer than normal to generate the map almost like it was resisting having to make underground world (lol). Yet The reverse happened 5 of the eight were underground and three above but the surface had become 50% mountains and there were up and down passages everywhere.
Finally i went back and played 8 dwarf. Took forever once again to generate the map. But this time it split the difference. 4 above 4 below. And the maps of both were amazingly complete.

So a I guess a little was discovered here but like I said most may be by design of afforementioned by sikbok that Goblins and dwarves do have a clear underground bias yet it clearly wont distribute players near evenly in a mixed race game to exploit both levels to their fullest and actuially almost lends an unfair advantage to those with a passage when little of the underground is used during generation. Based on this microcosm of a field test anyway.

All of this on huge map and far distance settings. Diggable and solid walls set to minimum.

I will add though that on the maps it did generate teams underground the resources seemed plenty and well placed. On the maps it didn't it lacked severely. Which sikbok also explained but it kind of sucks for expansion and adventure purposes.

[lusciouslanguidity]

Originally posted by havok:

Next we need a cloud level where we go up to do battle with the Gods.

only half joking

YASSS!! I would love this :] I'm sure there are more who have thought of this as well.

[GhengisFarb]

Originally posted by lusciouslanguidity:

Originally posted by havok:

Next we need a cloud level where we go up to do battle with the Gods.

only half joking

YASSS!! I would love this :] I'm sure there are more who have thought of this as well.

Yes, have long thought this would be nice with only flying and floating units being able to traverse the clouds (water).

Originally posted by Shaithias:

I like to rpg dark elves, is there any love for the dark elf rpgers coming sikbok? Please?

We could simulate Dark Elves if we had a Heart of the Underground, but instead we have a Heart of the Glades that gets rid of the dislike/hatred of temperate which does not exist in the game....

[Rhedd]

I can't put into words how much I disagree with making the underworld bigger and more open.

I LIKE how it's being genereated at them moment, size-wise. I hated it being a huge, open area full of towns and things just like the surface world (like it tended to be at release). I suppose the ratio of diggable to non-diggable walls could change, which would help, but keep the tunnel-and-cave feeling.

The underground should be a different environment, forcing you to deal with narrow tunnels, mining units, etc., not just a slightly different second map with brown textures.

I don't think it's perfect, though. I'd love to see new, appropriate sites replace things like inns and fairy groves when underground. Also, all of the lily pads on the subterranean lakes have GOT to go. :P

While I'm at it, being able to select a surface or underground start for each player (and AI) would be great. Also, being able to add more than one underground layer to a random map.

But don't make it more open. Bleah.

[PXR5]

Originally posted by Rhedd:

I can't put into words how much I disagree with making the underworld bigger and more open.

I LIKE how it's being genereated at them moment, size-wise. I hated it being a huge, open area full of towns and things just like the surface world (like it tended to be at release). I suppose the ratio of diggable to non-diggable walls could change, which would help, but keep the tunnel-and-cave feeling.

The underground should be a different environment, forcing you to deal with narrow tunnels, mining units, etc., not just a slightly different second map with brown textures.

I don't think it's perfect, though. I'd love to see new, appropriate sites replace things like inns and fairy groves when underground. Also, all of the lily pads on the subterranean lakes have GOT to go. :P

While I'm at it, being able to select a surface or underground start for each player (and AI) would be great. Also, being able to add more than one underground layer to a random map.

But don't make it more open. Bleah.

I can't agree with you. Now you are forced to go upstairs as soon as you can. It's a waste of time to scout more than 2 turns around your starting location as, most likely, there is noting to find but the way upstairs. Your other points I do agree with, some underground exclusive sites would add to the fun. And yes beeing able to choose if you want to or not start underground would be a good thing.

[GhengisFarb]

Originally posted by Rhedd:

I can't put into words how much I disagree with making the underworld bigger and more open.

I didn't see anyone saying they wanted it more open, the consensus seems to be wanting it to cover the whole map. As is it now it's typically only in one corner or part of the map with three to five players blocked from accessing it giving the other players an additional map to themselves.

Originally posted by Rhedd:

The underground should be a different environment, forcing you to deal with narrow tunnels, mining units, etc., not just a slightly different second map with brown textures.

I don't think it's perfect, though. I'd love to see new, appropriate sites replace things like inns and fairy groves when underground. Also, all of the lily pads on the subterranean lakes have GOT to go. :P

Agree, the underground should have tunnels and caverns. And having the exact same fertile plains and forests doesn't feel right in the underground.

[Jiks]

In my current game the underground is vast and is stuffed full of goodies to the extent that having vowed not to set any more cities up I am repeatedly doing so.

The previous two playthroughs it was pretty minimal, however. I don't know whether the map generation considers the leaders present (goblin, dwarf, dwarf, elf in this case) or if it's pure chance.

Either way I'm liking the variety except that I want to play Civ:BE and this great game at the same time and that isn't easy, one must sleep at some point!

[havok]

To me liking fertile plains or not underground has to do with each of our personal likes/takes on if its a "goblin den" type setting or a "lost world" type environment. It would be sweet if it knew how to intelligently generate both fashions in regards to establishing the diggable walls and flora or slime.

[Zhadez]

Good thread, seems to me like giving the option to have players start above/underground would fix most of these issues, like has been mentioned.