Racial synergies with Necromancer

[Kemenril]

Anyone have any suggestions for which race to best match with Necromancer? Goblin is an obvious candidate due to caves and blight tolerance.

Draconians seem like a bit of a waste due to lack of regeneration-undead synergy.

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by Demonicon:

reviving this thread :-) Just tried Draconian Necromancer and got the regrowth racial governance. It works, and if you get the life steal reserch from the necro tech tree, your crushers and chargers suddenly become VERY hard to kill.... slap on a stone skin from earth adept, and you have a nigh on immortal unit at hand that can almost 1v1 an archon titan.... if you manage to get a crusher to gold rank, they even gain tireless, making them the perfect melee roadblock a necro can wish for :-)

And now, get Stylite Chargers, and boost them with the Shamans. I tried teaming them up with 3 shamans/3 chargers, and those stacks are insane.

Also, don't forget the Embalmers Guild. 7 HP is a lot on T1's. If you pick the medal upgrade at RG 4, you'll be able to build Chargers with like 70 HP IIRC.

It's true that tireless is awesome, but Lesser Flying+ Charge + 3 damage channels...is ouch as well.

[Demonicon]

thx, will try that immediately

[mar3usmc]

Those combos can be used outside of necromancer and are already strong. I still don't see how being Necromancer, over anything else, would support that so much more. I still don't see draconian necromany being better than any other race. Still on the bottom for me.

Personally, right now, and while I know others will disagree, I still think goblins synergize the best with Necros. Disregard the double stacking of the blight resistance. What you need to look at are the Necro Units. Golbin deathbringers are by far the best. Very unique, and potent with their inflict weakened at elite status. The Goblins ability to lower blight resistance with blight doctors and the death bringers makes them incredibly powerful.

Additionally, I say focus on the economic traits, and take the trolls. You don't need the beatles. You have the bone collector, OP, as a siege unit, and trolls are just awesome against units with no fire abilities. Also, you can just team up the troll with a hero that adds fire resistance. High level trolls are almost unkillable. Butchers are also, imo, some of the best pikemen available. Add that to the fact that you can expand very quickly, and have cheap units, I think Goblin Necros are the best.

Necros, I believe, excel in melee type of combat. This is why I actually lean away from Elves these days, which I use to play a lot. Necros should really focus on Necro units. You don't need other units much. They should play support to your army of reanimators, bone collecttors, and many deathbringers <-- OP. If you can get up a deathbringer early, you don't even need to make many other units anymore. They make them for you.

Remember, you are a necromancer. You don't care about your specific race as your armies are meant to be composed of your ENEMIES units, that you convert. That is the power of the necromancer. Turning your enemies units against them. Don't try to play like a warlord with unit spam. Think economics and supporting your undead, FREE, army.

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

Those combos can be used outside of necromancer and are already strong. I still don't see how being Necromancer, over anything else, would support that so much more. I still don't see draconian necromany being better than any other race. Still on the bottom for me.

Necro boosts health of the charger, and gives it life steal. It also gives damage bonus later with Power Ritual. Those boosts are stronger than any other class can give the pike alone, while the Regrowth handily negates the weakness of the Necro.

Meanwhile, your shamans stay the normal damage dealers and buffers they are, but they suddenly also become healers.

And lastly, Cathedral of Bones allows you to build Everything with an additional medal. That means that you can build your entire army at gold Medal, which happens to be a Warlord class ultimate most of the time.

So yes, no other class boosts the Support/Pike combo as well as Necro does, and Drac is kind of tied here with Frostlings - Witches/Frosguards from a combination much like this one, without lesser flying and charge, but while dealing even more damage and having insane defense on the guards for a T2, and Greater Life Steal AND Tireless even without Shadowborn. Hell, Those pikes are the only units outside of heroes that can have all damage channels.

Sure, goblin butchers are strong, but the Frostguard will beat it regardless of whether it's 1v1 or supported, and the Drac might have a slight weakness to pikeman, but it still has first strike, can use it's charge, and hits like a truck. Even against butchers. Counting the Regrowth, it will defeat the butcher 1v1,

That said, goblin deathbringer is superior, and the tame troll is also insanely strong.



But there's one statement I really disagree with, that of your army being free. You still pay full upkeep for everything you raise. I've had a game into turn 70 Class ult where I had -400 income and only managed to keep my gold by selling site rewards and snowballing with my armies. Quit that game prematurely, as my computer was crap back then and it took 40 minutes for the Ai to make it's moves.

In general tho, I agree Necro's got a great frontline. Shame not to put some weight behind it, especially when both drac or frostling supports really hurt at range, vs nearly any target.

[mar3usmc]

Well, yes, I am not saying an Necro doesn't make pikes strong. It makes all pikemen strong. I disagree with your butcher assement.

Necro Butcher vs Necro Guard, butcher wins. Frost resistance basically screws the Royal Guard. Butcher has 2 more armor, basic lifesteal to start, and inflict bleeding. Economically they are cheaper too, on maintanance, with volunteer bonus at veteran rank. So no, I feel you are very incorrect on Guards beating Butchers.

Same goes for Chargers. They put out 2 less physical damage, have 9 less HP, and 2 less armor. Regrowth will not save them. At higher ranks they are worse off gaining less HP per level, 10HP, until champion where everything gains the same HP of 10 per level. Sure, you can use the Draconian Trait for +4 fire damage to give them a little more punch, and the charge is nice when flanking, which they excel at with lesser flying, but you just can't compare with the butchers.

It mostly comes down to that your comparing a tier 1 unit with a tier 2. Are they are very good tier one unit, yes, but do they beat the butcher, no. It may be close with regrowth, but it is still a loss. Regrowth is only awesome in high HP units, like trolls. Sure, you can boost them with your shamans, but if you want to argue combos then we are involving too many variables, and the conversation with devolve into pointless "what if" debate. Shamans are probably the best unit draconians have, and that is why they make for a much better run as a sorcerer.

That said, you don't tend to use either unit in such a fashion anyway. They are anticavalry units primarily, and bottleneck stoppers on battlemaps. Butchers are just better at this, while the chargers are more for flanking after the defensive stage is over. This just falls into my early arguement in the thread that draconians don't specialize enough; "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" situation again.

I am sorry, I am not trying to be an pain in the butt about this but the numbers don't lie.

Last, I mean the army is free in that you didn't not purchase it.

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

Think economics and supporting your undead, FREE, army.

It reads as I said it. Economics, to SUPPORT, i.e. maintenance cost, of your FREE, i.e. no purchase cost, army. As you said, you had issues with supporting your army because perhaps you didn't focus on the economics. I can't emphasize it enough. You should NOT play a necro like a warlord. If you do, vs a warlord, you WILL lose. The warlord can easily out spam you, and their units hit harder, especially dwarves. You must use your necro units, especially the reanimators and deathbringers. You can even use armies of nothing except deathbringers.

This is why I like Goblins so much for necromancers. They have the best deathbringer by far (If you get fearstrike plus, armor upgrade, and slaughter pits combination they are VERY potent), and the best economics for getting your expansion going VERY fast. You can completely ingore the first 3 Governance Levels for units and go economic. Your city population can BOOM very quickly, and if you are lucky to have some corrupted springs nearby then you can get some nice gold bonus too. Last trait lowers the blight resistance of all enemies for your Irregular, Infantry, and Pikeman (ALL TYPES including the deathbringers), plus 5 HP, and +2 blightdamage. This is why you ingore your range units and just get in the face of your enemies.

Fundementally though, the economics of Goblins is where it is at. This is what keeps you going strong once you start getting your "free" units from your enemies spam, which you return right back at them. You need strong economics as a necromancer, not strong racial units! That said, I still say goblins are very good.

Sorry for the wall of text. I play a crap ton of Necro.

SIDE NOTE: If you are against enemies without much fire damage you should get the trolls and spam. Go for the fear strike on them with the castle of the lich king, and they are sooo strong. Every time they are attacked, there is a fear check 2x; one for the attack and one for the counter attack. That is very potent. Regardless of Necromancy. Same goes for bone collectors, but without the regrowth, but they get to eat carcasses or get support from your spam of reanimated cadavers.

[mar3usmc]

SIDE NOTE 2: Another thought, once you think you have enough cities of your primary race, whatever that is, to get your Deity Rank, you need to get other races ranked up too. As a Necro you will be using whatever race is on that map that is against you. Therefore, you want to rank up in those races as well because you "converted" enemy units will get those bonuses from the ranks you get for that race also.

This just further supports the idea that you are a NECROMANCER. Your army will have many of your enemies units mixed in, perhaps mosly your enemies units!

[mar3usmc]

SIDE NOTE 3: Goblins Diety Trait applies to cadavers as well. That is pretty awesome!

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

Well, yes, I am not saying an Necro doesn't make pikes strong. It makes all pikemen strong. I disagree with your butcher assement.

Necro Butcher vs Necro Guard, butcher wins. Frost resistance basically screws the Royal Guard. Butcher has 2 more armor, basic lifesteal to start, and inflict bleeding. Economically they are cheaper too, on maintanance, with volunteer bonus at veteran rank. So no, I feel you are very incorrect on Guards beating Butchers.

Same goes for Chargers. They put out 2 less physical damage, have 9 less HP, and 2 less armor. Regrowth will not save them. At higher ranks they are worse off gaining less HP per level, 10HP, until champion where everything gains the same HP of 10 per level. Sure, you can use the Draconian Trait for +4 fire damage to give them a little more punch, and the charge is nice when flanking, which they excel at with lesser flying, but you just can't compare with the butchers.

It mostly comes down to that your comparing a tier 1 unit with a tier 2. Are they are very good tier one unit, yes, but do they beat the butcher, no. It may be close with regrowth, but it is still a loss. Regrowth is only awesome in high HP units, like trolls. Sure, you can boost them with your shamans, but if you want to argue combos then we are involving too many variables, and the conversation with devolve into pointless "what if" debate. Shamans are probably the best unit draconians have, and that is why they make for a much better run as a sorcerer.

That said, you don't tend to use either unit in such a fashion anyway. They are anticavalry units primarily, and bottleneck stoppers on battlemaps. Butchers are just better at this, while the chargers are more for flanking after the defensive stage is over. This just falls into my early arguement in the thread that draconians don't specialize enough; "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" situation again.

I am sorry, I am not trying to be an pain in the butt about this but the numbers don't lie.

Last, I mean the army is free in that you didn't not purchase it.

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

Think economics and supporting your undead, FREE, army.

It reads as I said it. Economics, to SUPPORT, i.e. maintenance cost, of your FREE, i.e. no purchase cost, army. As you said, you had issues with supporting your army because perhaps you didn't focus on the economics. I can't emphasize it enough. You should NOT play a necro like a warlord. If you do, vs a warlord, you WILL lose. The warlord can easily out spam you, and their units hit harder, especially dwarves. You must use your necro units, especially the reanimators and deathbringers. You can even use armies of nothing except deathbringers.

This is why I like Goblins so much for necromancers. They have the best deathbringer by far (If you get fearstrike plus, armor upgrade, and slaughter pits combination they are VERY potent), and the best economics for getting your expansion going VERY fast. You can completely ingore the first 3 Governance Levels for units and go economic. Your city population can BOOM very quickly, and if you are lucky to have some corrupted springs nearby then you can get some nice gold bonus too. Last trait lowers the blight resistance of all enemies for your Irregular, Infantry, and Pikeman (ALL TYPES including the deathbringers), plus 5 HP, and +2 blightdamage. This is why you ingore your range units and just get in the face of your enemies.

Fundementally though, the economics of Goblins is where it is at. This is what keeps you going strong once you start getting your "free" units from your enemies spam, which you return right back at them. You need strong economics as a necromancer, not strong racial units! That said, I still say goblins are very good.

Sorry for the wall of text. I play a crap ton of Necro.

SIDE NOTE: If you are against enemies without much fire damage you should get the trolls and spam. Go for the fear strike on them with the castle of the lich king, and they are sooo strong. Every time they are attacked, there is a fear check 2x; one for the attack and one for the counter attack. That is very potent. Regardless of Necromancy. Same goes for bone collectors, but without the regrowth, but they get to eat carcasses or get support from your spam of reanimated cadavers.

I've played quite the crapton of necro as well.

The reason I prefer Drac/Frostling pikes is BECAUSE you can combine them. In the frostling case, that makes up for the lower defense compared to butchers, with the RG adding another level, and evening out the life steal. They have a far superior Elite upgrade with Tireless, which is a golden combination with life steal. I've taken down 3 warlord stacks with 3 guards backed up with 3 witches. Those stacks included phalanx and warbreeds. Butchers are awesome, I agree, but you can't buff them like you can the frostguards. Sure, RG 5 is good for the butcher - but by that moment, I don't use them anymore. As you put it, their deathbringers are awesome. I churn out like 2 full stacks from my first ancient ruins and than you stop - you kill everything in your way for a while until the superior unit takes over.

frostguards, however, fill a different role. By Tireless and 15 Defense (Elite, and protecting a support), they are viable right into the endgame. Butchers don't get over 13 Defense when elite, and you can't even build them that way - silver at most.

And lets consider the matchup of chargers vs butchers. Lets say they're both fresh, which makes the Charger Gold and the Butcher Silver. We're considering all upgrades (racial), no support units. Also not counting MCU's and Power Ritual, which would probably even out the field more. Lets also ignore the random 20% up or down damage spread and assume that Inflict Weakening procs first chance possible, so that it's in effect from the second attack onwards.

Charger : 63 HP, 11 Def, 9 Res, 15/4 Phys/Fire attack. 100 Blight Prot
Butchers: 75 HP, 14 Def, 10 Res, 17/2 Phys/Blight attack. 20 Fire Prot

Charger strikes first, as it can move 6 hexes vs the Butcher's 4. This means butcher is in guard mode and charge is in effect. Charger has only 1 attack left. (because reasons.)

Butcher mod def: 14 * 1.2 = 16 Def (always rounds down)
Butcher mod Res: 10 * 1.2 = 2 Res
Charger mod att: 21
Charger deals (10+21 - 16) + (10 + 4 - 12) * 0.8 = 15 + 1 = 17 damage.
Butcher retaliates (10+17-11) = 16 damage.
Butcher Inflicts Weaknened, reducing def/res by 1 and blight resistance to 40%.

Butcher turn:
Butcher attacks 2 times. (10+17-10) + (10+2-8)*0.6 = 17 + 2 = 19 damage. Charger HP at 9.
Charger retaliates 2 times for (10 + 15 - 14) + (10 + 4 - 10)*.8 = 11 + 3 = 14 damage. Butcher HP at 30.

Charger Turn. Charger regenerates 20% of his HP by regrowth, which is 12. Charger HP is at 21.
Charger attacks for 14, butcher retaliaties for 19. HP's are at 2 for the Charger, and 11 for the Butcher. Next turn, Butcher attacks and kills the Charger, being 1 hit away from death himself.

That's pretty even, considering that you're a Tier higher and die in the same number of hits. Upkeep might be the same, but Charger's still a lot cheaper.

All in all, the butchers arent nearly as much stronger than chargers as you think. The additional stack of lifesteal counts, tho.

Frostguards however...are just stronger. Tireless really makes the difference here if you ask me. However, redoing the math above won't show that, as they shine brightest with their supports, getting 4 damage and 2 defense extra from having a support per pike. And just as much life steal as the butchers with RG.

And you're wrong about the role. Other classes use pikes mainly as anticavalry, but if you're either of those three classes, you shouldn't restrict them to that. They're the best line infantry you got, with the exception of Trolls. I always have my deathbringers take a more dangerous role than line infantry, instead walking up and killing enemy archers/supports or setting up flanks. Bone Collectors might work for other races, but all three of those pikes are superior line infantry due to having sustain - regrowth + life steal for the Chargers and Greater Life Steal for the other two. Bone Collectors have no innate sustain active in combat, only when picking up corpses.

And no, above mentioned game I did not play necro like a warlord. I had a few hero stacks exploring, and the Age of Death just raised enough troops to get me that low in income. Also, I never had any issues supporting my armies, and I had enough gold to fund Palaces of the Perished. Why ? Because I sold site rewards that weren't good enough. I got several thousand gold from that every turn.

I'll admit that goblin economy is stronger for necro, no contest there. However, I was mainly talking about how the pikes measure up. I told someone "go try them, they're awesome", but you somehow wanted to contest them being strong. Well, you're wrong. They are insanely strong, and benefit more from their supports than butchers ever could.

[BBB]

*fight*!

[mar3usmc]

You can not exclude power ritual. That gives blight damage, which gives the butchermore synergy, as the butcher would still have the 100% blight resistance, while the charger would not. Additionally, please explain the ranking difference. I don't feel like looking up why one would be elite and the other not. Thank you for proving my point though, butcher wins. I love that you took the time to work out all the math. Seriously, good job.

As for the royal guards, by the time you get up tireless on your royal guards, I would think you would be using something else by then. I think I would be spamming trolls at that point. That pretty much would make for a crappy day for your combo. Hahaha here we go into "what if" arguements.

So you like a unit because of that race's support. Well, as a necro I am sure I could grab up some of those supports and do much the same. Necro ghouls ftw. This is why I could care less about having a specific race outside of that races potential economic ability. Exponential growth is the name of the game, and no race does it better than goblins.

I don't discount your arguement though. I do agree that they are strong combos and that the individual units are not bad. I just want to make sure the person who revived the thread understands that it is not about the races units but the economics of that race that you should focus on while playing a necromancer. Other classes, with equal economies, will probably beat the necromancer. Theocrats can spam those damn shrines, and Warlords can simply put out more and better units. You get forced to spam counter units, bone colectors for the theocrats, and deathbringers against the warlord units (with the HOPE that you get a good conversion rate). Sorcerers are not a terrible problem if you are goblin as you can break the blight resistance of the Horrors. Druids are a joke, and need love as a class imo with regards to units, great heroes though (EXCELLENT LICHES). Goblin necro also beats the shadow stalker spam of rogues. So really the only thing as a goblin you have to worry about are the theocrats and warlords, which you will beat if you hit them early, which a necro army.

I will give you this though, draconian units could be used in place of necro units to fight the theocrats. There innate fire resistance would be useful.

For the frostlings, I am curious if you have tried using Yetis? Not as good as trolls, but you can get them pretty early depending on your game settings. Never liked them much while playing necro though. They have path of frost, which sorta counters your path of decay as a Necro with your Reapers, and can slow your cadaver armies and other necro units.

DEV READ!!!!: Speaking of which, can cadavers get some love please on the movement rates. That last patch giving them no movement points after being created really sucks balls. Maybe allow them better movement accross more terrain types like marshes or mountains?

Yes, you are right on the role arguement. That is what I said, they are multirole units. Therefore, if you don't play them that way you are screwing yourself. Still, I like my units more specialized. It is just a personal preference.

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

You can not exclude power ritual. That gives blight damage, which gives the butchermore synergy, as the butcher would still have the 100% blight resistance, while the charger would not. Additionally, please explain the ranking difference. I don't feel like looking up why one would be elite and the other not. Thank you for proving my point though, butcher wins. I love that you took the time to work out all the math. Seriously, good job.

As for the royal guards, by the time you get up tireless on your royal guards, I would think you would be using something else by then. I think I would be spamming trolls at that point. That pretty much would make for a crappy day for your combo. Hahaha here we go into "what if" arguements.

Both have the Guard House, Racial T3 structure, and Cathedral of Bones for a medal rank. So all Necro units that aren't T3 can be build at Silver Medal. Draconians have RG 4 Economic which has the Racial T3 hand out another medal. And since you wanted with all upgrades, that's where you end.

And my point wasn't that butchers were bad, it was that they aren't the improvement you seem to think they are.

Well, the point about royal guards is that you won't have to get something else. They beat manticores 1v1, and if you've got a support behind, they'll beat warbreeds to.

And yes, I like the units because of the synergy with other units. Sum more than the parts after all.

And yes, you can pick up white witches if you find them, and get the frozen flames buff. But you won't get the +2 Def that royal guards get, and draconian ancestry requires draconian units (works well on Deathbringers, tho.)

Also, you talk about the troubles you get against certain other classes - against Theocrats, you got your tools. Desecration gives you more than a fighting chance on itself. Against warlords, that's why I love my Frostling Pike/Witch combo so much - that's where they shine. They counter everything the warlord has due to superior defense and incredible sustain.

As for the rogue, I think frostling is actually better against stalkers, because undead can't be backstabbed, and your racial units are frost immune, unlike goblins. You can use Damnation to inflict Weakening on Stalkers if you feel you need it, but otherwise just attacking the stalkers with your frostguards/whatever frostling bruiser you have works. It feels a bit like a pillowfight with the low damage both deal, but they're not problematic anymore. Unlike goblins, you won't get frozen if they're leveled or under Dark Pact. And the rest of the Rogue's suck badly against undead. Druids and Sorcs shouldn't be a problem anyway due to numbers.

[hiliadan]

Originally posted by mar3usmc:

Exponential growth is the name of the game, and no race does it better than goblins.

Not really. Necro does not play by growing population, it plays by clearing sites. As Gloweye pointed out, you don't need strong economy for sustaining a Necro army, you need a lot of clearing.
I also find it funny how you consider Goblins to be top economic performer where their only true economic boost is their +20 gold/Great Farm at RG2. Sure, Goblins have better population growth but that's much weaker than direct boost to gold or mana income, and you don't even need it as a Necro as you get population by clearing + you can use Undead Plague.

Draconians have a somehow better buff with RG1 and the cheaper Shrines. (but then you'll be in excess mana in late game)
Tigrans are the true economic powerhouse in terms of gold, and it seems you're talking about gold as you mentioned units' upkeep.

You may have played a lot of Necro but given you're talking about Deity upgrade, I feel like your playstyle is focused on XL maps with low pressure from the AI and in these settings, basically any combo can win and claim to be the best.

[mar3usmc]

@hiliadan

I don't ever play extra large maps, ungh. I don't like to spend a month on one game. Large is the maximum I will ever play. Most for sites I have is the normal setting or less, no random cities or dwellings, resource structures and visit structures are few, treasures none, starting distance from AI's are average. So your assumption about a lack of pressure is quite false. I like scarcity of resources. Gives people something to fight over.

So my maps are probably much more bare than yours I think. Your techniques for growing your population would fail miserably. Also, the places you can visit have very strong defender strength. Therefore, even if there were more sites available, you wouldn't, and couldn't, be taking over very much early on.

Basically, there are many variables at play if you really want to get into the economics with regards to map settings. However, with the settings I almost always play on, don't expect to just be mud stomping the AI at random sites, while growing your city populations, from the start.

And with goblins, Diety upgrade doesn't take very long to achieve compared to other races. Just another bonus to starting as them.

[hiliadan]

Please define "doesn't take very long" to reach Deity upgrade? 60 turns? That's very long for me.

Ok, I didn't assume you had non-standard settings. You're right that it will be more difficult to roll over by clearing if there are few structures. But then, debating the strength of a class/race on non-standard settings is not really relevant.
And the fact that defenders are Very Strong is not really a big problem. In competitive PBEM, we always play Weak Starting Army and Strong Defenders and you get rolling very very fast with Necro. I played 1 game with Weak Starting Army and Very Strong Defenders and there was not a big difference.

I would also like to point out that my assumption about lack of pressure probably remains true. :P Large map is still quite big, and, more importantly, Very Strong Defenders make life very hard for the AI players (and possibly Few sites too, not sure about its impact) so they're likely to develop slowly. Try standard settings on a small map with 6 AI (or better, 3 other human players) and you will see that it becomes harder to develop with cities and get to Deity. Most competitives PBEM games with 4 players on Medium map are won (though maybe not finished) by turn 60 and you usually do not even get to Prophet RG.

[Demonicon]

I'm gone a few days, and the come back to 12 new posts XD awesome to see so much interest in this thread, always nice to see people are still interested in AoW :3

Btw, another reason why i like drac necro, is the banefire on drac reanimators (you very rarely get anything that's resistant to all 3 dmg channels, which really helps early on)