Dwarven theocrat strats

[Daverin2112]

So, I honestly have to say, the combo I want to play most is the Dwarven Theocrat. I love the general gist of dwarven philosophy/religion in most fantasy settings that have them, and its a bent on my already goody-two-shoes loving roleplayer that appeals to me. Thing is... I feel they have awkward synergies with the theocrat.

The theocrat seems to have so much going for it... except a good companion to the crusader. Seriously, they basically come across as the obvious backbone unit of the theocrat, except they are mainly a tank who is waiting for someone to hit hard for them while they hold the line. Thing is, besides the Shrine of Smiting... I think the theocrat lacks that as a class. Exalted are great raiders and can hurt, but I am not sure its "enough" to be the hammer to the crusader's anvil. Evangelists are... well, evangelists, good for what they are, but not what I'd call an attacker.

Fortunately for most races, it seems they actually have a good option at most points throughout the game. All can use t2 supports for as long as needed. Here at least, dwarves rock because forge priest. But then, say you need something stronger? Well, here is what we have:

Orc: Black knights and shock troopers both are great as the 2 to the crusader's 1 for a 1-2 punch. Dangerous for flanking and charging damage. Oh, and tireless crusaders. AND beefier crusader health. AND better attack. Worse resist? Talk about the best class to cover that, with their great buffs which include resistance. Seriously, funny as it may sound, orc theocrat is an honest competitor for top race spot, competing mainly with...

Draconian. Evangelist. Legit nuff said. Support damage and role... except with the chasis needed to survive the increasing ability to burst down units without the crusader's say. Fast healing only helps even more, even if it is wasting a crusader upgrade... Oh yeah, and they have a t3 flyer, with better health, charge, overwhelm, AND projectile resistance, leaving them kind of picking up what the exalted lacks to actually deliver damage.

Elf: Hey, can't complain about griffons, longbows, or storm sisters here. Also unicorn phasing just to really get in the flank damage when needed.

Humans: Priest is good. If nothing else, they have the knight, who is both extremely conceptually synergistic (heck, they used to have devout sans theocrat.) Of course, he also is a strong charger t3, so again, has the oomph the crusader lacks.

Halflings: Eagle riders, yay. Also, brew brothers seem goofy, but oddly well reflective of why you'd use a theocrat support team at the time they work. Finally, martyr slings mean they can stay relevant longer. Not sure they have the punch as the above, but they have something.

Goblins... Are goblins, I guess. Never really play them or look into them. I am not sure goblin theocrat makes sense to me, since one likes mass production and the other favors elite squads, but maybe it balances out? Gob players can chime in here.

So dwarves have... forge priests. And that seems kind of it. They make the crusader EVEN beefier, which is good, and perhaps it helps the exalted a bit better. But then... yeah. Their own archer is perhaps the worst at this role. A single shooter with dwarf stats, he is probably intentionally the least glass cannon-y of the t1 archers, which is kind of NOT what we are looking for here. Cavalry are nothing spectacular. And then the firstborn. Honestly, the firstborn have to be the worst t3 for the theocrat, for only one completely contradictive reason: Far from synergizing with the crusader, he is the only one I'd actually consider to replace the crusader with, given the income. But he won't solve the issue. He is a slow, tanky fellow who, especially at gold, gives as good as he gets, and against certain units DOES bring the pain, but he needs help. And the theocrats just don't seem to give it to him until t4 with the shrine. Its almost as if this makes them transcend the others as the latest game choice, even more fitting given the dwarf is, similar to the theocrat, good at units at a price. But I feel uncomfortable gambling that.

So... am I missing something? I know trebuchets are finding a use as a good companion to crusaders. Is that enough? Are there any synergies I am missing? Do I need to not type essays for a discussion page? Definitely yes to the last one, but still any advice would be appreciated.

Tl;dr - Would consider reading the above anyways because details, but basically it seems the dwarf is lacking a synergy with the theocrat they other races have, and need, namely a good attacker unit that meshes well with a crusader defensive line. Want to know either strategies arond that, synergies I am missing, or explanations as to why I am wrong. Thoughts?

[Kyun]

Imo Crusaders work completely fine together with evangelists.
Dwarf crusaders have even more defense and resistance, so they are even harder to kill. and with a few martyrers at the back that buff them even more they are nigh unkillable, the forgepriests give them 100% fire protection. And the crossbowmen may only fire once, but they can move as fast as the crusader and still do their full ranged damage while they stay safely in the second rank. the firstborn is imo one of the best racial t3 units in the game, and gives you good fire, good holy and good normal damage.
Also dwarfs are surprisingly mobile. You may think "huh!?" now. but they have mountainiering which means you can move at low cost over mountains, this allows for shortcuts and attack angles that other races won't or even can't take. this allows you surprisingly good map control. (i mostly play elves or goblins and i nearly never move over mountains).

As for goblin theocrats. Yeah this is imo the worst possible combo of all races and classes.
Goblin units are weak which is only countered a bit by the theo.
Goblins rely haevily on poison for which theo does not give any bonusses.
The theo and gobo combo gives you holy and poison damage and those are the two types against which most other untis have resistences.

What the theo provides is a slight income and growth increase which can synergize well with the goblins cheap units and already fast growth. But imo growth is more important than gold since growth means gold + production + mana + research and the druid does the growth part much better, as does the sorceror too if you only summon and don't build anything until you have cities/metropolis.

[Gloweye]

Goblins Theocrat works best in swarm tactics. However, I admit it lacks the synergies of Orc/Draconian, both of which are awesome. Orc Crusaders rock(and even deal some damage...), and the resistance malus does get offset.

Crusaders are only offensive capable when Holy Champion kicks in - which means other Theocrat and the incoming Necro.

[BBB]

Don't underestimate Boar Riders.

[Daverin2112]

Admittedly once you actually consider them amongst the other cavalry, they are really good, simply because dwarf stats. So long as we aren't talking black knights or unicorns, they stand pretty tall (won't count humans because evolving doesn't quite meet the same idea in my book, even though its a good ability. Just doesn't change the fact I am picking them for what they become, not what they are.)

[Pumis]

You should see evangelists when you have armageddon going on. They suddenly become hard hitting beasts. I usually replace crusaders with them when armageddon hits the table.

Also you shouldn't underestimate low tier units of theocrat. Mighty meek can give you units which can support the crusaders.

On goblins? I wouldn't say it's a worst possible combo. I enjoy playing goblin theocrat, especially evile one simply because I like spreading blight everywhere and the advantage it grants to goblin player. It also gives you fast start and your units are cheap and fast to produce. Theocracy is after all about having lot of units in the field since they support each others and spells give them serious buffs.

[Daverin2112]

I am not sure I would consider theocrats about having "alot of units" on the field, at least considering that bar is set by warlords/dreadnoughts who have better unit cost reduction and production boni. Theocrats to me are "supposed" to be the guy whose units just flat out last longer.

I just wish Mighty Meek could be an army spell, instead of per unit. Then again, I'd imagine even one crossbow with that would be a VERY glass cannon substitute for a shrine of smiting (AoE not included.)

Also thinking on it more, I'd be REALLY scared of firstborn with Holy War. Tank nothing, that is just an outright beast who to top it off shrugs off so many forms of damage altogether that I wouldn't even know if there is a "good" way to deal with them anymore.

Finally I must admit I haven't actually -used- trebuchets yet, so I have no clue how well they acutally work. I suppose reading it there really shouldn't be anything to complain about...

In the end I suppose its kind of like orc warlords; dwarf theocrats only further enhance the strengths of the theocrat. Its just a matter of not quite having as obvious a roster to fill out the gaps.

Now if only those archons from the previous games were an actual playable race, and not just the cursed remnants of them... Those are EXACTLY my kind of guys. T.T

[Jimib4158]

OMG i sooo loved you brought up the dwarven Theo.

I played a 5 player medium recently, with some pretty OP players, by turn 50 or so i think it was, would have to recheck. I was in the strongest position of all players. I had scouted everyone, no one had a clue where i was :D

This is because the settings were sooo hillarious ......combined with i had a one in a million perfect roll



Med map....small continents, few cities....and the most important factor UG on :D


I had a small valley deep in a corner of the UG map. with ONLY 2 entrances in and out. Soooo dissapointing most players quit that game lol :D I was Hidden in a very twisty labrynth map.

I was the newest of the players to multi, but b ecause of the roll was clearly in the best position as one of the more experienced player was already taken out. Why no-one had even scouted me yet :D, but i had scouted them all with cherubs :D

[Daverin2112]

Yeah, it is pretty hilarious if you get a really cozy spot in the underground. One time I had a sprawl of tunnels that only had overworld access through one tunnel... which then burrowed itself in some jutting undiggable walls. Suffice it to say, having only one tile to access the one city that protects the rest was just kind all kinds of funny. Talk about turtle. >.>

[Jimib4158]

Ya i soooo wished we actually played that 1 out, we had some very good players, but when i would have been finally ready to move out i would have rocked their world with an armies of shrines-of-smitings :D
It was very inconvienent for anyone to get to me, and i had a commanding lead and position by turn 45. It was a late starting game and the group was tired, not to mention a map condititions no one had given much thought.
I forgot to ask for the one tournament i heard of UG was always turned off?

[Daverin2112]

I don't know anything about the tournaments, but I wouldn't be surprised. Without a dwarf or a goblin, the UG is created so it is not that exciting, while when it is, the sheer variety of random factors, including that what should be an equal distance from opponents is marred because the undergrounder and another player are both by an entrance, as well as what you noted above. Also, it may be just me, but the UG seems to gleefully spawn treasure sites for the person down that... who then has little competition for them.