Dread Reaper may be a tad much...

[CryHavoc1134]

I get that the Dread Reaper has a lower, starting HP count compared to other T4 units, but look at its benefits: 100% immunity to poison, a very common damage type. 60% immunity to physical damage, the most common damage type. I’m not completely sure on this one, but I think it starts with 60% frost immunity too (give or take). Melee strikes drain up to 9 HP. Can instantly kill a unit from short range, and even if the target survives, it saps 40 HP from the target.

Now, there are some weaknesses like spirit and fire, but its magic resistance is so high (starts at 12 or 13) that it greatly negates the effectiveness of units who rely on such attacks.

Ex: I attacked a recruit Dread Reaper with an elite exalted (theocrat tier 3 that did about 14 physical and 11 spirit damage). Attacking from the front three times, the exalted lost over half of its health in retaliation strikes while only taking about 10 HP from the Reaper (freaking life drain). Because of the Reaper’s magic resistance, the exalted was only doing about 4-7 spirit damage despite the Reaper’s massive weakness to spiritual attacks. The Reaper’s strength’s undo the inherent weakness built into it.

Simply put, the Dread Reaper is a little too strong. No wild nerfs are needed, just a slight decrease. Inflict death should either kill the target or fail without sapping 40 HP like every other type of attack in that category. Imagine if convert, control animal, seduce and other similar, touch-based attacks drained 40 HP on failure. Given the immunities against poison, frost and physical, the Magic resistance should be lowered at least two. This would make its weakness’ more exploitable and force commanders to be more mindful of their enemies.

These changes would put the Dread Reaper on par with the T4 standard. Still a leviathan on the battlefield, but not quite so overwhelmingly powerful compared to everything else.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Are we talking about the same dreadreaper?
Because from my experiance dreadreaper is the weakest of all tier 4 units.
I cant be spamed like manticore's.
It's special ability is useless againt anything that isnt alive.(undead, machine's, etc)
I doesnt renenarate(being undead and all)

I am just going to asume your bad at beating them.
Dreadreaper are short range/melee units.
Focus fire spirirt or fire damage and there dead(er) before they can reach you.
Yes if you are trying to use an exalted( a unit with a rather weak melee i might add)
Against a lifestealing undead then yes you will lose.
For that mather exalted are raiders(fast moving units design to take cripple the enemy by attack things and force a defendse action or taking out production, research etc)
There not frontline units.
Compair the dreadreaper to the must hated manicore spamm.
Juggernouts high health high armored area of effect ability.
The sniper and area of effect shrine of smithing.
The glorified battering ram lighting calling known as the horned god.
Or the (techincly 3.5) shadow stalker.
The dreadreaper isnt really that scary.

Eldric horror is the most expensive of all tier 4.
Nearly impossible to mass but there skill are worth it.
I often doubt rather getting a dreadreaper is worth it.

[Gloweye]

That's callling for a nerf because your T3 can't beat a T4?

Try a Shrine against it and come back.

[end it fam]

Also try strategizing around unit abilities, it has life drain, so you need to limit its retailtion attacks, i.e. flank flank and flank some more, dont try and tackle it head on, thats exactly what it wants.

[CryHavoc1134]

Think the point of my post has been overlooked. You guys are focusing on the tier difference rather than the weaknesses and how they are applied. Any unit that has a weakness should be effected by said weakness beyond the normal realm of base damage. The unit I suggested, while a lowly T3, does 11 spirit damage (some of the highest spirit damage available in melee and by no means weak in that regard) but struggled to even inflict half of that against a unit with severe spirit weakness. I'm saying the math is off. Correct me if I am wrong on that topic, the whole reason I posted in the first place. Please note: I'm not suggesting any T3 should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a T4.

As for T4 Manticore spams, I'll address that despite how wildly off topic it was. A proper Necro army with one Dread Reaper can inflict massive casualties against such an assortment. Might not win, but it can make a proper invasion hard to maintain. The Manticore's damage massively reduced, mixed with the life drain and the Reaper's fearsome quality (nothing funnier than watching a Manticore run in fear). Reaper's mixed with simple banshees can screw that build real quick (banshee screams reduce moral making them susceptible to fearsome and invoke death). God save them if a semi-decent, Necro commander is on the field (lvl 11). Add one or two of the T3 Necro infantry and those Manticores will be fighting for you in the next fight while their friends waste attacks doing less than half damage on the Reaper (setting up those flanking attacks I keep hearing so much about). Healing comes from commanders, and the 9ish HP they get from each strike they inflict.

Same with the Eldritch Horrors. I've noticed how often the Horror ends up in a panicked state (check that, funnier when they flee in terror), while I've never seen a Reaper run. One on one, its no contest. Their shock breath hurts, but that health is easily made up in in the initial life drain strikes. The build mentioned in the previous paragraph works nicely against them too.

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by Havoc1134:

Think the point of my post has been overlooked. You guys are focusing on the tier difference rather than the weaknesses and how they are applied. Any unit that has a weakness should be effected by said weakness beyond the normal realm of base damage. The unit I suggested, while a lowly T3, does 11 spirit damage (some of the highest spirit damage available in melee and by no means weak in that regard) but struggled to even inflict half of that against a unit with severe spirit weakness. I'm saying the math is off. Correct me if I am wrong on that topic, the whole reason I posted in the first place. Please note: I'm not suggesting any T3 should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a T4.

So let's get the math. Recruit Reapers have 13 resistance. Theocrat Elite Exalted have a base stats of 17 physical 4 spirit last I checked - unless you're human, when it becomes 14/8.(I'm going to assume this, as it's closer to your numbers) That would give a spirit damage of (18-13=5)*1.4 = 7 spirit damage on average (and (24-12=12)*0.4= 4.8 physical )

math looks about sound.

now for the defeat of a Reaper. Do NOT attack it from the front if you can avoid. Also, gang up - it doesn't have Tireless, and as a Theocrat you have all the tools you need to completely destroy them. Above it looks like you're doing an average 11 damage per strike - not that much when it's healing 8 per retaliation. However, it won't retaliate against the Second Exalted, which does it's full 33 damage without the Reaper retaliating. Since those guys only got 66 base damage, the third will kill it pretty reliably.

However, don't use exalted here. You go either cheaper or more expensive.

A Shrine deals 20/20 Fire/Spirit - base. More with Devout units. So base, it's a (30-13=17)*1.2 = 20.4 fire damage, and (30-13=17)*1.4 = 23.8 spirit damage on average. That's 44.2 damage it's not getting a life drain retaliation for. At pretty long range.

Other option is Crusaders - having Strong Will, they're immune to Invoke Death - can't even get attempted, so they also can't be affected by the life drain. They're not gonna skyrocket in damage - they got 14 phys out of the gate(2 ranks), and get 5 fire for Holy Champion, going for (24-12=12)*0.4= 4.8 Physical and (15-13=2)*1.2=2.4 Fire damage on average, but the Reaper deals no spirit damage back, and a crusader in guard mode has 14 defense - which means the damage of the reapers stops at 8 on average. That's 8 vs your 7.2 damage, and you're using a T2. Sounds like a good support for those Shrines I mentioned before.

And Theo got some nice spells - Holy War gives all those Crusaders and Exalted a nice +10 Spirit Damage, which wrecks the reapers as it's going to add 14 damage to an Exalted's attack, or 9.8 to those of your lowly T2 crusaders.

Beware the Necro spells though, as one like Desecration will up his resistance by 3 while lowering yours. Gonna wreck you hard when he's got reapers.

If you don't have perfect options vs Reapers, just swarm them with the higher resistance units you got - Life Drain is capped by the amount of damage dealt, and they're not Tireless, so they'll run out of retaliations and die soon after. As Reapers are summoned, they're never going to be many - your Shrines are produced and as such, can be.

[CryHavoc1134]

Jaccov, the average I've seen is not 7. Closer to 5 (maybe 6 at the highest), and the spirit damage was not a base 8. I was rolling with a theo commander which pumped it up to nine. So, an entity with severe weakness to spirit attacks has a magical defense so high that an exalted with 9 base spirit can only muster an average of 5-6 damage. Even at the highest, doing 2/3 damage to an emeny with severe spirit weakness is good math to you?!? Hmm, I may be confusing weakness with buff.

While I'm looking for a dictionary, I'll say this one more time, T3 units will not survive toe to toe with a T4. I bloody get it. I'm not, once more for good measure, NOT saying it should be different. I've dumped hundreds of hours into this game and can honestly say I know about flanking and spells. I also know that needing three units to put a dent in one enemy leaves you open to flanking from every angle from the Reaper's five friends. Nothing spells banshee cluster f*** like having your whole army within two hexes of one another, assuming they aren't running in fear from the Reaper's fearsome trait. Not to mention this stellar tactic leaves any commanders, perhaps already lacking half their HP from a Reaper strike, in the cold to fight off whatever else decides to say hi.

My theo commander who's spirit blasts, in that particular battle, were marked at 10 but hovered around the same numbers of actual damage inflicted by the exalted (assuming he doesn't get killed outright in one shot or docked half his HP in a "failed" attempt). If a unit is supposed to be "weak" against a certain damage type but makes up for it with outstanding overal resitance, what is the use?

My point is simple. Reapers are weak (had it right the first time, I looked it up) against spirit. So, if the base damage is 9, I think the bare minimum damage done should be in the 9 range (maybe 8 if the roll goes the Reaper's way). That means a unit that is weak against spirit is still strong enough to negate the weakness entirely and put them on even terms. Currently, the Reaper is so strong that it slaps the weakness aside and lowers the potential of one of the hardest hitting, spirit wielders by about a third. That seems off to me.

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by Havoc1134:

Jaccov, the average I've seen is not 7. Closer to 5 (maybe 6 at the highest), and the spirit damage was not a base 8. I was rolling with a theo commander which pumped it up to nine. So, an entity with severe weakness to spirit attacks has a magical defense so high that an exalted with 9 base spirit can only muster an average of 5-6 damage. Even at the highest, doing 2/3 damage to an emeny with severe spirit weakness is good math to you?!? Hmm, I may be confusing weakness with buff.

While I'm looking for a dictionary, I'll say this one more time, T3 units will not survive toe to toe with a T4. I bloody get it. I'm not, once more for good measure, NOT saying it should be different. I've dumped hundreds of hours into this game and can honestly say I know about flanking and spells. I also know that needing three units to put a dent in one enemy leaves you open to flanking from every angle from the Reaper's five friends. Nothing spells banshee cluster f*** like having your whole army within two hexes of one another, assuming they aren't running in fear from the Reaper's fearsome trait. Not to mention this stellar tactic leaves any commanders, perhaps already lacking half their HP from a Reaper strike, in the cold to fight off whatever else decides to say hi.

My theo commander who's spirit blasts, in that particular battle, were marked at 10 but hovered around the same numbers of actual damage inflicted by the exalted (assuming he doesn't get killed outright in one shot or docked half his HP in a "failed" attempt). If a unit is supposed to be "weak" against a certain damage type but makes up for it with outstanding overal resitance, what is the use?

My point is simple. Reapers are weak (had it right the first time, I looked it up) against spirit. So, if the base damage is 9, I think the bare minimum damage done should be in the 9 range (maybe 8 if the roll goes the Reaper's way). That means a unit that is weak against spirit is still strong enough to negate the weakness entirely and put them on even terms. Currently, the Reaper is so strong that it slaps the weakness aside and lowers the potential of one of the hardest hitting, spirit wielders by about a third. That seems off to me.

You could have an unlucky series of rolls - damage range on the tooltip should have been (19-13=6)*1.4 = 8.4 average, +/- 20% --> 6 - 11.

Look, this is the math as the game uses it.[age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com]

I'm beginning to suspect that the Necro had Desecration active, which gives +3 resistance, pulling those numbers to (19-16=3)*1.4 = 4.2 average, +/- 20% --> 4 - 5.

It might seem off to you, but that high resistance also means it's even stronger against the other elements.

Due to the way damage is calculated, a case like a reaper with high resist but weakness, is night invulnerable to the lower damage numbers, while it's taking the full brunt from the stronger attacks - once again, try a shrine and see how fast it dies.

(Also, being a Theocrat, Banshees aren't that dangerous - it's spirit damage and debuffs. Half of your units are outright immune, and the rest is resistant.)

[CryHavoc1134]

Yeah, that's probably it. I always have had bad rolls on every attack since the DLC came out. You can repeat the equations until the cows come home, but I've been playing this game since day one and I've paid enough attention to know the intended equations do not always play out (remember back when the goblin's tier one infantry was getting their shield counted twice?). As of now, the spirit weakness on the Reaper seems off.

If what you are saying is indeed true (playing devils advocate here), then I might ask the devs to review the numbers and make sure that is their plan. If that is their plan and the only unit that can do anything that resembles damage to a Dread Reaper is a Shrine, then I might suggest the balance is off. That works great for a Theo in the late game, but what about a Warlord or Rogue? Just gang up on it and hope the Dread Reaper's five friends don't pummle you into a bloody pulp can't be the only tactical option.

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by Havoc1134:

Yeah, that's probably it. I always have had bad rolls on every attack since the DLC came out. You can repeat the equations until the cows come home, but I've been playing this game since day one and I've paid enough attention to know the intended equations do not always play out (remember back when the goblin's tier one infantry was getting their shield counted twice?). As of now, the spirit weakness on the Reaper seems off.

If what you are saying is indeed true (playing devils advocate here), then I might ask the devs to review the numbers and make sure that is their plan. If that is their plan and the only unit that can do anything that resembles damage to a Dread Reaper is a Shrine, then I might suggest the balance is off. That works great for a Theo in the late game, but what about a Warlord or Rogue? Just gang up on it and hope the Dread Reaper's five friends don't pummle you into a bloody pulp can't be the only tactical option.

A T4 for a T4 sounds like a decent plan to me. And as I said, Crusaders are pretty cost on a cost-effect basis. Or just have 2 stacks together, both with a Shrine, and you're close to 1-shotting the Reapers.

For Warlords or Rogues? Rogues mass Stalkers - no problem at all there. 2 Stalkers will take out a Reaper easily, and can be build rather cheap compared to the summoning of the Necro.

Warlords are weak against necro or incorporeal anyway - my gamble would most likely be Stylite Phalanx(more for the extra damage channel than that it's actually spirit - and polearm). However, you're going to outnumber necro elite troops by so much it isn't even funny.

BTW - it's not balanced just based on numbers. It's balanced based on tests - and reapers are maybe the most expensive T4 to produce out there, and 100% useless against Dread or against Shrines. That's 2 out of 6 (other) classes.

[CryHavoc1134]

1. you can't take two stacks into those undead temples (blanking on the name). If your only plan to fight one reaper is to hit it with two to three units, prepare to be flanked to death by the other Reaper and the four other units while losing whatever commnader you send in for support.

2. While the stalkers may last longer against reapers, banshees' spirit damage eats them (lower tier fighting a higher tier and doing well? thought that wasn't possible), so be prepared to lose some good units. That actually is my whole strategy as a Necro against Stalker spam. Tie them down with banshees then flank with other units. Works like a charm.

3. Juggernaught v a single Reaper is not as one sided as you make it out to be. The only thing that truly hurts the Reaper is the fire damage from the mortar, and that has to be reloaded while the Reaper still connects with frost. Not saying the fight is easy, but magic can be worked (been there, done that). The Juggernaught may win, but it will be close and bloody.

4. Warlord phalanx, even modified for spirit pikes, will only do about one damage per strike (remember, Reaper has VERY high resistance). So say goodbye to them assuming you have a production center capable of producing said units.

5. Shrines will hose a Reaper. In that you are 100% correct. I wonder what would go down in a 6v6 fight against all the other T4 units (just musing here). I'd put my money down right now for the fight against manticores and the Horned God (invoke death, even if it never kills one, the initial 40 HP hits would be devastating). The Eldritch Horror fight would be interesting only because of the shock breath. If that doesn't hose the Reapers, my money goes straight for the undead because of life drain and fearsome (something I've never seen affect Reapers but have seen affect Horrors). I'd even put my money down against the Juggernaught (though I'd be biting my fingernails) because the mortar cannon becomes a little harder to use when their own units cluster.

[Noble Ten]

I would expect a Reaper to defeat Exalted easily. You need to plan better. Bring some ranged spirit/fire damage, Dont expect to hold melee with them unless your a warlord. Even then its still pretty tough with the phys resist and life steal. So pretty much plan it better. Reapers are undead T4 afterall and I think they are fine where they are. Its Death touch is its most dangerous feature, but there are ways of protecting yourself from it.

Say on my Warlord, when knowing I am going in on 2-3 reapers (Lich Dungoen on Strong def) I make sure my knights are all gold medal leveled for a reason. I still take a bit of damge, but I generally can wipe 3 Reapers and its small fry (eh T2/3) undead no problem with just knights.

[CryHavoc1134]

Noble, your comment is a common one. I'll say the same to you as everyone else, I know an exalted cant take on a Reaper head on and do well. I'm not writing a tactical guide here, just showcasing the oddity in a unit that has a serious spirit weakness but still powers through spirit attacks.

[Gloweye]

1. But you're having free choice of what you take it. It's not that hard to either wait for a bit and take a shrine, or to go in far outclassing the rest.

2. Sure, as necro I'd build banshees to - but they're still summons, and 1v1 they lose against the stalkers. So yes, if you can flank the stalker a coupe of time, of course he dies - this is basically the argument you rejected against me before.

3. yes, it is as one-sided. Reaper has 3 damage channels: Spirit, Blight, and Frost. Juggernaut is outright immune to the first two, and has 11 resistance to take the average frost damage to 7. Mortar hurts most, Broadside hits for 23*0.4 = 9.2, Ram does 6*0.4 = 2.4. So what a smart jugger does is walk away and take an attack of oppertunity every other round, to use a mortar for 16*0.4 = 6.4 physical and 15*1.2 = 18 fire damage. Compare damage per round and use the HP totals of 110 against a Reaper's 66, and you're going to see that it is 1-dimensional - and that's the reapers full force, most of what a jugger does is only hitting 1 guy with an AoE. So in most cases the jugger rocks even harder.

4. I made a note of that - however, it's still a damage channel. As a warlord, it's far from a nice match against a reaper, so i'd try and get 3 phalanx on that reaper. 21*0.4 = 8.4, which isn't to bad, as long as you outnumber.

Unless you're elves (mounted archers) or dragonians (loads of things) of course.

5. Horned Gods have strong will, so they're immune to Invoke Death(including the 40 HP loss), and negate some damage. Also have high resistance to reduce the other damage of the Reaper, which in return cap's it's life steal. However, If the reapers avoid the lightning breaths, they should have a chance to beat the Horrors. 6v6 i'd be surprised if even a single jugger got below half health killing those 6 reapers, unless it's because of broadsides.

[Bob]

You're being blinded by the spirit weakness trait, saying that that has to be his major weakness that brings it down no matter what the source. Weakness and protection come into play mainly against the higher base damage attacks, but are reduced in effectiveness when resistance is high. Go for higher base damage on those weaknesses, like Smite, or Shrines, or Flame Tanks, or whatever.

Another thing that you seem to miss is that weaknesses and protections aren't the only source of strength or weakness of a unit. Reapers are built for melee combat with living units, where they can life drain away and make enemies panic, while taking advantage of their incorporeal trait. Attack them with undead units like Banshees, attack them with Machines like Shrines or Flame Tanks, attack them from ranged with stuff like Draconian Elders (with Dragon Ancestry they can hit quite hard, and they get + fire damage on every medal). Generally going into melee with living units without something heavier than a couple of points of spirit damage is just a bad idea.

[+Vastator+]

IMHO they are not OP at all, as others have shown.
Wait for modding tools and nerf them yourself. :)