Musketeers: Worthless or just Garbage?

[TrollofReason]

Forgive me, but I can't find a single reason to make Musketeers as a Dreadnought of any particular race, not even as High Elves! They do less-than-mediocre damage at a range that makes their unreliable debuff worthless, suffer direct fire penalties which means you can't screen them, and they can only use their piddling (physical only) attack every two turns. They're not fast enough to even avoid much damage from slow infantry, and their stat lines are crud enough that getting flanked by cav after reloading means that they die stupidly fast.

In short, I see no reason to ever field any of these ineffectual little bastards, and resent that I have to waste turns on researching them to get at anything useful. For the Allfather's sake, Musketeers SUCK SO BAD! They don't even emulate their historical, real-world counterparts and fit bayonettes to their weapons to help see off cavalry charges!

But maybe I'm missing something. Does anyone out there in the ether know how to get anything, anything at all out of these horrible units? I mean, really, the only basic Archer units that do less damage than Musketeers are the Orc Razorbow (Orcs doesn't shoot!) and Dwarf Crossbowman (crossbows suck for some inexplicable reason in this game).

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Bayonettes were only invented after centuries of musket development. The AoW versions are based on the 16th century version, not the 18th century, so it makes sense they don't have them. But that's something of a digression.

Anyway, I don't agree. Musketeers are a great unit. They are tough, not too expensive, and deal very hard punches to high-defense targets. There's no need to screen them, because they outpunch most lower-tier infantry units in the game.

Basic archers are better at shooting wolves and kobolds and the like, sure. But basic archers also go down like ninepins when something breathes on them, and when you're facing something tough, their arrows will plink off with nary any effect. Muskets, because they deliver all their damage in one go, won't be hindered that much by the enemy's defense value.

As a corollary to all this, I find it better to build Musketeers in a town with an Enchanted Armoury to make them even tougher, than a town with a Focus Chamber to make do more damage. For Elven archers it's the opposite. Of course, if you can settle a town with both a Crystal Tree and a Vault of Knowledge in its domain, then you're set to produce really good musketeers.

In short: If you use muskets as if they're archers, you'll be disappointed. But if you use them like muskets, i.e. putting them right on the front lines, waiting until you see the white of the enemy's eyes, and then blowing them away in one big point-blank volley, they're an excellent unit.

[Gloweye]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

As a corollary to all this, I find it better to build Musketeers in a town with an Enchanted Armoury to make them even tougher, than a town with a Focus Chamber to make do more damage. For Elven archers it's the opposite. Of course, if you can settle a town with both a Crystal Tree and a Vault of Knowledge in its domain, then you're set to produce really good musketeers.

(In general, I support the entire post here)

But in this config..elven archers also benefit from both. They're really ugly in a case like that, and will be build with 15 total ranged damage in that situation by a dreadnought.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by jaccovandorpGloweye:

(In general, I support the entire post here)

But in this config..elven archers also benefit from both. They're really ugly in a case like that, and will be build with 15 total ranged damage in that situation by a dreadnought.

Oh, indeed they benefit from both. But if I have to pick one, I prefer to give the Elves the Focussing Chamber upgrade. The extra damage is just too good, and I'm used to protecting them anyway.

[ProblemSir]

IMO it is really hard task to find any unit in this game that is worthless or garbage - I am really under great impression how well the game is designed. And fact that each class has on first look similar units only to experience most of them work differently makes the game deep. The difficulty lies in finding these differences and learning how to use them :)

Long story short: Yes, you are missing the fact, that cannons are they only unit in dreadnought's arsenal that play real "ranged" role in his army :)

Peace and enjoy getting know the game better :)

[TrollofReason]

These are all really good points. I'm glad I asked, and am happy with this community.

[The Cure]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

Bayonettes were only invented after centuries of musket development. The AoW versions are based on the 16th century version, not the 18th century, so it makes sense they don't have them. But that's something of a digression.

Bayonets have been around since the 16th century.

Actually the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a "plug bayonets" option. Becasue, once plugged, they're not coming back out, so it's a rather fair trade off turning your ranged unit into a poor man's pike infantry.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by The Cure:

Bayonets have been around since the 16th century.

I'm not so sure. Wikipedia says the word was used, but states "it is not clear if bayonets at the time were knives that could be fitted to the ends of firearms, or simply a type of knife." Even if some early versions did exist, they were not in widespread use because they weren't very practical. This is the era of pike-and-shot tactics, where gunners typically sought protection behind formations of pikemen.

Still, for AoW it would be a fun option. It's kinda present already in the way muskets are implemented: often, you have to choose between reloading your guns, or using your musketeers as extra flankers. Their stats put them roughly on par with most racial tier 1 swordsmen offensively, after all.

[The Cure]

Originally posted by Iguana-on-a-stick:

Originally posted by The Cure:

Bayonets have been around since the 16th century.

I'm not so sure.

I am. I'm getting my info directly from books about the period, not Wikipedia. Time Life Seafarers Series to be precise.

But yeah, regardless of the Tercio tactics of the time, there were still bayonets in the late 16th century. Plus, Dreadnoughts are a lot more than just Pike and Shot armies, that's only one influance.

It's not something I'm campaigning for, nor do I find musketeers all that underwhelming, I'm just saying it would be cool and fit in with the Dread's theme of "outfitting the ordinary with extraordinary tech."

[BBB]

There is a Dreadnought spell, weapon kit, that does this.

Originally posted by The Cure:

It's not something I'm campaigning for, nor do I find musketeers all that underwhelming, I'm just saying it would be cool and fit in with the Dread's theme of "outfitting the ordinary with extraordinary tech."

http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought

scroll to "weapon kit" - target friendly infantry or pikeman unit gets blunderbuss, sabotage and throw net.

[The Cure]

Originally posted by BBB:

There is a Dreadnought spell, weapon kit, that does this.

Originally posted by The Cure:

It's not something I'm campaigning for, nor do I find musketeers all that underwhelming, I'm just saying it would be cool and fit in with the Dread's theme of "outfitting the ordinary with extraordinary tech."

http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought

scroll to "weapon kit" - target friendly infantry or pikeman unit gets blunderbuss, sabotage and throw net.

?

There's no ability that gives them bayonets, which is what we're talking about. Not weapon kits. Did you not read the whole post, or what?

[BBB]

I did read it. I was replying to "outfitting the ordinary with extraordinary tech".

There isn't a "fix bayonet" ability or spell, at least not yet. That wouldn't be very hard to mod though. What effect would you like it to have? First strike and polearm? Wouldn't that make building Pikes useless though (unless the dedicated Pikes were all round better?)

[The Cure]

Originally posted by BBB:

I did read it. I was replying to "outfitting the ordinary with extraordinary tech".

There isn't a "fix bayonet" ability or spell, at least not yet. That wouldn't be very hard to mod though. What effect would you like it to have? First strike and polearm? Wouldn't that make building Pikes useless though (unless the dedicated Pikes were all round better?)

And that line was referring to bayonets and the Dread's current theme in general... Which is exactly what it says.

Originally posted by The Cure:

But yeah, regardless of the Tercio tactics of the time, there were still bayonets in the late 16th century. Plus, Dreadnoughts are a lot more than just Pike and Shot armies, that's only one influance.

It's not something I'm campaigning for, nor do I find musketeers all that underwhelming, I'm just saying it would be cool and fit in with the Dread's theme of "outfitting the ordinary with extraordinary tech."

This entire post is about bayonets. Not sure how you could get anything else out of what was written. The Bayonets are the "extraordinary tech" in this post.

The only way you could get what you got out of it, is if you only read the "outfitting the ordinary with extraordinary tech," part, then added your own sentence to the beginning like "I wish dreads were..."

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

For a hypothetical "Fix Bayonets" ability, I'd suggest:

* Unit gets Pike Square (defense against cavalry)
* Unit gets +2 physical melee damage (Extra stabby bits)
* Uses up all action points but the unit automatically enters guard mode. (Fixing bayonets takes time)
* Permanently disables Fire Musket and Reload (there's a knife sticking out of the barrel)

No first strike (the muskets are shorter and much more ungainly than pikes) and no polearm. (Same reason.) Though I could see replacing the +2 physical damage with Polearm. That'd make the ability even more situational, though. Adding both would be too strong, I think, and indeed risk making pikes obsolete.

It would make the musketeer unit quite unique, and fit their position as "heavy missile unit." It would mainly be useful if the musketeer is damaged and/or about to come under heavy attack.

[The Cure]

I like it.

[BBB]

@ Iguana, I think that such an ability is very doable, as it basically uses existing abilities.

Removing the ability to fire muskets (30 damage) seems like a huge tradeoff for pike square (+3 defence against Cav, flying and lesser flying units). You would be in Guard mode though, so I suppose it would give your Musketeers that extra survivability.