Thoughts on the crossbow

[Shaithias]

So crossbows in real life are superior to almost all bows except longbows in the areas of hitting power, and range. Even today, the United states military (seals, spec ops, etc) use crossbows in lieu of silenced snipers on some special missions. They penetrate bullet vests and plate mail alike with ease,and are silent killers. In fact, the demise of the armoured knight and the rise of infantry was due in large part to the crossbow: a weapon that could strike a knight down at mid range and yet be manned by an almost untrained peasant.

I think it would be fitting if heavy crossbows got armor piercing by default, and all crossbows -50% range damage fall off should be extended by one or even two tiles. Not as far as the long bow, but enough to make crossbows different in ranged power projection than say, a wand. I can understand musket balls flying all over hither and thither, but crossbow bolts fly straight and true and hit hard, although not as hard over long range as longbows.
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What this would do balance wise:
Human early game would be a wee bit stronger as militia are now a bit stronger and can defend a fortified position a better.

Dwarf crossbowmen would be a serious contender for defense versus the forge priest, (cheaper but still got a chance vs armor)

Rogues would have a slight buff to their earlygame scoundrels. The scoundrel harrass would be better and less likely to end in the scoundrel's demise if cripple DOES go off, and the non elf bards would be a bit easier to keep out of harm's way, although elf bards would still be the best in terms of weaponry and range.

Warlords would have a bit more effective ranged mobility.

Please keep the discussion constructive, and on topic!

[Dic Tator]

I support this idea wholeheartedly. Maybe make the units using crossbows a bit more expensive, but a crossbow without armor penetration seems rather useless - that's what they were made for.

A general increase in range before damage penalties for cross/bows would be nice though.

[Stormworm]

I say keep the damage fall off as it is, but give them armor piercing by default. I wouldnt say no to range increase but I dont know how that would effect the overall balance. We could start with just armor piercing and from there increase the range slightly if necessary?

[Dic Tator]

If balance was such a huge deal, then swords should essentially be ineffective against armor. "Not all weapons were created equal."

Make it racial if nothing else. Give, say, the dwarves the strongest crossbowmen with the longest range. Their very lifestyle give them better access to good grade materials for making them. Maybe humans have the second strongest, having bastardized the dwarven design. Then just make them weaker in some other regard.

[BBB]

Heavy Crossbows already get this by having higher burst damage. Dwarven Xbows are underrated imo, because that 16 damage only needs to check once which means you can move the full 28 and you *will* hurt something, whereas a 3 shooter checks 3 times at most, if he's near the target. Both are good.

Light Crossbows are not supposed to be armour piercing dealers of death.

Imo, no need to change them. In 2 rounds a Xbow (dwarven) will do as much damage as a Musketeer, but you get them earlier :).

[Rhedd]

I agree with BBB. Crossbows are already superior to bows because you don't lose damage due to moving. Leave them alone.

And as far as using "historical knowledge" to support a point... Crossbows didn't supplant longbows because of effectiveness against armor (ref. Agincourt). It was because being a longbowman took skill and years of training while any idiot (or US soldier) could be handed a crossbow and hit something with it. The OP mentions this, but doesn't correctly identify it as the actual critical difference.

[Rhudda]

Originally posted by Shaithias:

In fact, the demise of the armoured knight and the rise of infantry was due in large part to the crossbow: a weapon that could strike a knight down at mid range and yet be manned by an almost untrained peasant.

That's probably not true. While crossbow bolts could penetrate plate armour with relative ease, that just led to thicker armour. Plate armour fell out of use in the 17th century, crossbows had been in use in wars long before that and even started falling out of favour in the 15th or 16th century due to the rise of gunpowder weapons. And gunpowder weapons were ultimately what sealed the fate of plate armour.

[MattStriker]

It wasn't even gunpowder weapons, really. Heavy armor remained quite effective against those for ages.

It was a change in the composition of military forces, away from feudal levies and towards professional soldiery. Simply put, plate armor died out because it was simply no longer an economically viable way to fight a war.

[Yaro97]

The historical context doesn't dictate the games workings as entertaining and informative as it is,since this is a fantasy game without a time period (as far as I know, I mean, we have bows, crossbows, muskets, trebuchets and cannons, fairly spread out) even in regards to real world weapons.
So for gameplay, I support a buff in some sort or another for crossbows because as it stands I don't even utilize units that rely on them because of how there are more specialized units for both close range combat and long range. Crossbows are generic at the moment, and an armor piercing element for heavy crossbows atleast could allow them to actually be worthwhile.
It is merely my opinion of course, im curious to see what becomes of this.

[BBB]

Originally posted by MattStriker:

It wasn't even gunpowder weapons, really. Heavy armor remained quite effective against those for ages.

It was a change in the composition of military forces, away from feudal levies and towards professional soldiery. Simply put, plate armor died out because it was simply no longer an economically viable way to fight a war.

Man raises a good point now. Western soldiers get some pretty nifty body armour in Afghanistan. Basic design is a lump of kevlar in the front, on in the back, 2 smaller ones on the sides, and a helmet (did these ever go out of use?). It weighed about 20 kilos all told iirc. It was the single most expensive piece of kit they issued us...