Discussing the Orc Arch Druid

[✝ Gamlingwine]

So after having discussed a Draconian Warlord I want to debate the Archdruid Orc. In this case, I’ve done my research on the official Triumph forums, read threads there, then also checked the discussions on Steam.

Most of the commenters seem to agree the Orc AD is really bad, but to be frank I don’t really get what to make of the critical statements made on their regard:
“Orc razorbows already get razor projectiles, so the empire upgrade is wasted on them”
To which I reply: when you get Hunters in a handful of turns, why would you even use RB which bear the same upkeep? Orc Hunters have been criticised for being too all rounded and not very useful, but with that 15 dmg Javelin, shield and 11 dmg+War Cry in Melee I can’t see how it isn’t a very good unit. Also, although the Orcs have no bow unit beyond RB they still benefit from the AD archer upgrades with their Hunters – with the mobility boost from one of the Empire Upgrades they get even better. What is wasted though, is the one giving racial archers animal/monster-slayer.
“The Shaman is just a downgraded Priest, because it lacks the former’s abilities, especially curse.”
Offensively speaking I agree, because giving the Shaman Bane Fire makes it too similar to the Priest. They get the same melee damage at Elite rank. However, I think the shamans being higher in tier and capable of healing and buffing animals remain useful as real support units rather than mere magic damage dealers. Also, Shamans get immunity to mind control and entangling touch. Priests get 100% immunity to blight though Shamans get 40%.
It could be noted the Shamans get 4/4/3 (blight, spirit, fire) while the Priests 5/3/3 (blight, spirit, fire). I doubt it makes any difference though. All in all, they seem to have both pros and cons – but Shamans seem to me more useful because they can heal and buff animals which are the AD’s greatest perk. Lastly 95 hp vs 61 of the Priest seem relevant to me. Compared to other racial Shamans, Orcish ones seem at worst average, on par with the Frostlings’ for efficiency.
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Orc vs Frostling AD
I make this comparison because most suggested FLs as good (not great but above average) ADs.
I think the first similarity most players will notice is that between Orc Hunters and Harpoon Throwers. I think anyone can browse the wikia and acknowledge their stats and perks are for the most part similar, with the difference the HT is more flexible offensively and defensively (forst damage, polearm to counter cav), and the Orc Hunter sturdier and significantly more powerful on melee.
FL shamans are to be fair, very powerful casters with interesting offensive debuffs, but since FLs already get 2 support units I’m not sure how good of an addition it is.
How Orc units mix with AD’s
Given the AD is summon-reliant, city units don’t play a role as great as with many other classes, however I’m sure players know better than massing animals and monsters exclusively. All in all, AD units add a great versatility to the Orc roster, which relies too heavily on physical damage. Most animals and monsters have a diversified damage and thus allow Orcs to handle situations then magic damage is required. The Orc units complement the summoned units with mobile, powerful and tough units, needful when melee damage is the only option.
To conclude my post I’d like to point out the Theocrats do compensate for the magical weakness of Orcs, but so does the Arch Druid. Most of the initial Hero Hero upgrades give significant protection to all the party: +40% spirit prot, +40% blight prot, party gains +1 resistance, +20% frost prot… And as with the Theocrat, the Orcs are granted additional survivability by the AD’s hero upgrades: Nourishing meal, fast healing, which combine well with the racial health boost and Victory Rush.

Note that my post is not trying to claim any 'truth' but is rather a discussion, a debate to which additions from more experienced players than I am are well welcome Non-constructive arguments are not of my liking.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

I was playing last night and noticed I have already a myriad of units and don't know what to keep in my garrisons or just do not buy at all, and what (most importantly) have as a formidable combo strolling around with my leader.

So far I have used the following army set-up: 1 Tier IV monster, 1 Shaman, 1 White Witch, 1 Harpoon Thrower, 1 Ice shaper (from the Empire Building Mod, an irregular with a high chance of freezing enemy units and bonus damage vs frozen/paralysed units - it can also freeze itself and restore health while neither taking nor inflicting any damage). I feel the army lacks something, perhaps a royal guard or a Hunter - but both are low tier (II and I respectively).
any suggestions?

ps. it's the early game so I can't support multiple full armies roaming around, I must thus balance this one at best.

[BBB]

iirc ice shapers are in the base game.

early game and you have a tier4 unit?

Cool. If it is indeed early game then you have a marked advantage and you should focus your army around.

As you're a Druid i assume it's an animal/monster t4, in which case buff it with savage rage and have everything elkse in the stack be there to heal it or to protect it.

I'd throw in a hero with savage rage if i could...or a warlord with last stand etc.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Ice Scapers are in the base game. The mod lets them evolve to tier 2 Ice Shapers. (Or you can build them directly.)

Anyway, to answer the question: I'd add an Ice Queen. Tier 3 support, meaning it is very fast as an Archdruid, and it lowers frost resistance of all adjacent units and has an area effect guard-breaking ability. And can freeze enemies with it. If you like the Ice Shaper, this unit will make it even more effective, though you can also swap them out.

Royal Guards are tier 2, but can easily be strong enough for the end-game if you get a city with a Sphinx Temple and some Ancient Ruins in its radius and build the upgrade buildings. They synergise very well with the Ice Queen: the royal guard can protect the ice queen and get some extra defense out of it into the bargain. That said, they're too slow for my tastes when playing Archdruid. (Same goes for the Ice Shaper and Harpoon though.)

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Iguana-on-a-stick původně napsal:

Ice Scapers are in the base game. The mod lets them evolve to tier 2 Ice Shapers. (Or you can build them directly.)

Anyway, to answer the question: I'd add an Ice Queen. Tier 3 support, meaning it is very fast as an Archdruid, and it lowers frost resistance of all adjacent units and has an area effect guard-breaking ability. And can freeze enemies with it. If you like the Ice Shaper, this unit will make it even more effective, though you can also swap them out.

Royal Guards are tier 2, but can easily be strong enough for the end-game if you get a city with a Sphinx Temple and some Ancient Ruins in its radius and build the upgrade buildings. They synergise very well with the Ice Queen: the royal guard can protect the ice queen and get some extra defense out of it into the bargain. That said, they're too slow for my tastes when playing Archdruid. (Same goes for the Ice Shaper and Harpoon though.)

Well, my defensive and tough orientation didn't change so I guess slower and tankier units are of my type. Perhaps I'll try the other t3 support variant of the ice Queen stated as being a more survivable version of the former and see how proper it works.

What about the white witches anyway? Are they a worthy unit in the mid to late game? They do seem to fare well stat and ability wise compared to shamans so I would say yes.

[Gloweye]

Their ranged attack is never useless, but creatures weak to one are often resistant to the other. Their Grant Frozen Flames ability is massive, since it opens new damage channels. They also get some inflict abilities, and even have swimming. This means they're really strong supports already, and only get stronger with the AD's boosts.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Their Inflict Chilling lowers cold resistance, which is a great combo with Ice Scapers or Ice Queens.

Park Ice Queen next to enemy, but don't attack. Enemy loses Frost Resistance from the Queen's presence. Hit with White Witch, dealing extra damage due to lowered Frost Resistance and lowering it further. Then attack with the Ice Queen or use the frost burst ability to turn them into a block of ice.

With medals, the White Witch inflicts chilling, Frostbite and Scorching Heat, lowering defence and physical damage and frost resistance on the enemy by a lot. Chilling also stacks. That's a lot of debuffs.

Once you get top level Racial Governance they get even better, as all Frostling support units get Frost Aura, freezing enemies who attack them in melee.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Iguana-on-a-stick původně napsal:

Their Inflict Chilling lowers cold resistance, which is a great combo with Ice Scapers or Ice Queens.

Park Ice Queen next to enemy, but don't attack. Enemy loses Frost Resistance from the Queen's presence. Hit with White Witch, dealing extra damage due to lowered Frost Resistance and lowering it further. Then attack with the Ice Queen or use the frost burst ability to turn them into a block of ice.

With medals, the White Witch inflicts chilling, Frostbite and Scorching Heat, lowering defence and physical damage and frost resistance on the enemy by a lot. Chilling also stacks. That's a lot of debuffs.

Once you get top level Racial Governance they get even better, as all Frostling support units get Frost Aura, freezing enemies who attack them in melee.

Thank you, that strategy involving the Queen seems really good. Last thing, I guess as AD the Mammoth rider is really useless right? If I want a tanky low tier the Mammoth itself as a summon should be preferable?

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Gloweye původně napsal:

Their ranged attack is never useless, but creatures weak to one are often resistant to the other. Their Grant Frozen Flames ability is massive, since it opens new damage channels. They also get some inflict abilities, and even have swimming. This means they're really strong supports already, and only get stronger with the AD's boosts.

I'm gonna get an army of supports then, shamans, queens and witches, plus the gargantuan and the shapers. ;)

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Mammoth Riders are one of my favourite units. Tier 2, but with hitpoints and damage that match a tier 3 human knight. They start out a bit stronger than summoned mammoths, but also benefit from Racial Governance upgrades that can boost them even further. Their defense sucks, so they work best if you have a steady source of healing, but if you have that and get them to Gold medal they're killing machines.

Weaken the enemy first with your supports, (White Witches can easily lower enemy defense by 4 points) charge in with Devastating Charge to kill an enemy before he can retaliate, then use the Killing Momentum ability to move again, either finishing off another weakened foe or retreating a bit and entering guard mode to survive the counterattack next turn.

They're also prime candidates for Grant Frozen Flames, as they're one of the few Frostling units that don't deal native cold damage, so this will give them 2 additional sources of damage.

Frostlings are an amazingly fun race to play because their racial units have all these great synergies with eachother. They're not the strongest by themselves, but when they work together they become much more than the sum of their parts.

That said, you're right that mammoth riders are relatively low priority for you if you have enough tough summoned units. But if you want a few relatively low cost and relatively fast moving stacks and don't have summons available, 2 Mammoth Riders, 1 Ice Queen, 2 White Witches and 1 Shaman will make for a very effective group.

Oh, and one more unrelated thing: Be on the lookout for any Forbidden Sanctums. Cities with an Arcane Sanctum in their domain can build the Altar of Bound Souls. Any support units constructed in those cities will have Resurgence, meaning that if they die in a battle, they come back to life afterwards as long as you win the battle itself. For you, that means respawning Shamans, Ice Queens and White Witches. That's a huge advantage.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Iguana-on-a-stick původně napsal:

Their defense sucks, so they work best if you have a steady source of healing, but if you have that and get them to Gold medal they're killing machines.

Weaken the enemy first with your supports, (White Witches can easily lower enemy defense by 4 points) charge in with Devastating Charge to kill an enemy before he can retaliate, then use the Killing Momentum ability to move again, either finishing off another weakened foe or retreating a bit and entering guard mode to survive the counterattack next turn.

They're also prime candidates for Grant Frozen Flames, as they're one of the few Frostling units that don't deal native cold damage, so this will give them 2 additional sources of damage.

As for the healing I picked creation master and earth adept to give my units more resilience and survivability. As for earth the ability that adds a load of defence while sacrificing movement seemed great to this purpose.

The frozen flames buff I've used so far to empower my gargantuan serpent, and it seems to work wonders. But I will also consider attacking in oder to lower the foe's defensive capabilities as well.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Yes, if you have a gargantuan serpent that gets priority for buffs over mammoth riders, but it's unlikely you'll have those in every stack.

As for buffing v.s. attacking: generally, you want to buff units in the first round and attack in the second.

If you're attacked, that's easy. But even when you attack the enemy and they rush at you, it can be a good idea to withdraw a bunch of hexes, putting your units in a defensive formation, and use the first round to buff your units and cast a spell or so.

You have a lot of buffing abilities, like Grant Frozen Flames, the Royal guards' bodyguard ability, and the Druids' Awaken Animal. Using these will make a big difference.

If you position your units right, you can furthermore make sure that the enemy only is in range to attack your best defenders. (i.e. Royal Guards in guard mode. They automatically enter guard mode when using their ability.)

Then, the enemy runs at you some more but will only get to attack once or twice each because you withdrew. On your second turn, you can then counterattack with buffed units and massacre them.

Doesn't work if the enemy is extremely fast, but in many cases this can drastically boost your odds.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Alright I'll keep all of this in mind. I never thought I would end up with a race focused on support and elemental damage, as I usually go for tough and melee, but at least the AD compensates with strong gargantuan s.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Indeed.

Oh, and the Horned God is also impressively tanky. Very expensive so you won't get many, but they hit like a truck, are incredibly tough with lots of immunities, have a entangling melee attack, a long-range area-effect stunning lightning attack, and can learn how to summon units in tactical combat. Oh, and they can charm animals. Oh, and they're still very fast and move across all types of terrain.

In fact, if I had to vote for the strongest unit in the game, the Horned God would get my vote. There's just nothing it's not good against.

[Gloweye]

Only real contender would be the Gold Dragon - but in 1v1 the horned god would win.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Iguana-on-a-stick původně napsal:

Indeed.

Oh, and the Horned God is also impressively tanky. Very expensive so you won't get many, but they hit like a truck, are incredibly tough with lots of immunities, have a entangling melee attack, a long-range area-effect stunning lightning attack, and can learn how to summon units in tactical combat. Oh, and they can charm animals. Oh, and they're still very fast and move across all types of terrain.

In fact, if I had to vote for the strongest unit in the game, the Horned God would get my vote. There's just nothing it's not good against.

Really impressive. I still have yet to unlock it because it takes several dozens of turns to do so in my slow speed game. I'll be sure to have one in my top notch army.