Underground metro fix?

[gezzer]

I've reached the point where I've given up playing CiM2 because of how screwy the underground metro is. The way the game now works a good metro isn't an option. You have to have one because street traffic creates all sorts of problems later in the game if you don't.
The underground metro in CiM1 was so much easier to build. You had a simple toggle that gave you three view levels, each one lower then the last. In CiM2 you can lower or raise the track a lot more, but the lowest view you can have is street level, and the streets and water are still present in your view, even with underground toggled, which makes building underground a bit of a nightmare.
I understand that no game is perfect, but I just spent over 2 hours on a unlimted funds sandbox test map (central city) just trying to build one and I gave up. I really need a toggle to remove the streets and the water from view. Either that or let us zoom in below street level if that will remove them from view. Even then there seems to be some really wierd rules behind what the game engine will allow and won't. So as it stands now I consider the game broken, and have no reason to keep trying to play it. Which means I have no reason to buy any of the DLC till it get's fixed either.

[andy2084]

Bump

[lethminite]

There is already an option to view underground and turn off all buildings and just see roads and track.
Can't remember where it is exactly, but its somewhere neer the minimap.

[gezzer]

Originally posted by lethminite:

There is already an option to view underground and turn off all buildings and just see roads and track.
Can't remember where it is exactly, but its somewhere neer the minimap.

Yes, but that's the problem. The roads obstructs your view too much. And when you consider that the underground metro surrounds the track with a concrete wall trying to connect tracks up can become very frustrating. Then add the fact that often the track will refuse to connect or even build in certain areas because it says there's no room (what's underground that's blocking it?) and it becomes a nightmare.
This wouldn't be as big a deal if the developers hadn't made the traffic increase over time. But they did and because of that you have to build a good metro system or most of your lines running on roads (bus lines are the worst) get stuck in traffic jams and become useless. There needs to be an option to remove both roads and water. Maybe have them become see through with just an outline. With water the wave effect distorts the metro line so connecting is impossible. I think the no room error is because the track is some how trying to interface with the roads and buildings above it. But I could be wrong on that.
While I really love all the improvements over CiM1, the metro in the first game was so much easier to build. IMHO the developers tried too hard to increase the options we have with metro lines and in the process made them really hard to build, which again wouldn't of been as big a deal if they hadn't made metros so important for later stages of the game.

[76561197991858962]

Originally posted by gezzer:

Yes, but that's the problem. The roads obstructs your view too much. And when you consider that the underground metro surrounds the track with a concrete wall trying to connect tracks up can become very frustrating. Then add the fact that often the track will refuse to connect or even build in certain areas because it says there's no room (what's underground that's blocking it?) and it becomes a nightmare.
This wouldn't be as big a deal if the developers hadn't made the traffic increase over time. But they did and because of that you have to build a good metro system or most of your lines running on roads (bus lines are the worst) get stuck in traffic jams and become useless. There needs to be an option to remove both roads and water. Maybe have them become see through with just an outline. With water the wave effect distorts the metro line so connecting is impossible. I think the no room error is because the track is some how trying to interface with the roads and buildings above it. But I could be wrong on that.
While I really love all the improvements over CiM1, the metro in the first game was so much easier to build. IMHO the developers tried too hard to increase the options we have with metro lines and in the process made them really hard to build, which again wouldn't of been as big a deal if they hadn't made metros so important for later stages of the game.

For me that's where monorail systems come in. For heavily congested areas of Central City where I would have problems building underground lines or surface routes it's time to take to the air. A good monorail system with a decent timetable took off a ton of traffic from that annoying North-South expressway and the neighborhood surrounding it. It's not a metro system, and it's defintiely nor what you were aiming for but it pulls in more money than my two surface/elevated metro lines.

I have succeeded in creating several underground metro lines, but it takes a lot of work in remembering height levels, sea levels, tunnel bugs (water shows in tunnels where it shouldn't [graphic layers issue]); it just takes time and practice.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Sign your game up at Paradox's official forums, they'll give you much better advice than than the Steam community because of the high number of CiM enthusiasts. I also recommend signing the game up at CimXchange.

[gezzer]

While your suggestions are great, I still have a problem with metro constuction. It's still way too hard to build and constricting in what it will allow me to build. The problem with your mono rail solution is it's a DLC. So while I did buy it, is the only fix for a broken metro system the buying of a DLC? That's kinda of slimy in my books. While a DLC that expands the game is always great, a DLC that acts as a solution for a broken portion of the game is not. The developers really need to rework metros so that we have the complete game instead of a nutered version IMHO.

[76561197991858962]

Originally posted by gezzer:

While your suggestions are great, I still have a problem with metro constuction. It's still way too hard to build and constricting in what it will allow me to build. The problem with your mono rail solution is it's a DLC. So while I did buy it, is the only fix for a broken metro system the buying of a DLC? That's kinda of slimy in my books. While a DLC that expands the game is always great, a DLC that acts as a solution for a broken portion of the game is not. The developers really need to rework metros so that we have the complete game instead of a nutered version IMHO.

When you put it that way, probably not, being that the monorail DLC is $10.00 USD. I wish I could give you better advice than "try, try again" because at some point (and I believe you've already reached that point) the game is less about fun and more about work/frustration.

The only other option I would recommend (I alluded to this faintly in my previous comment because I almost never build underground rail networks anymore) is build a surface and/or elevated metro line. It'll look tacky because the track bed floats in midair but at least you'll have no difficulty in seeing it. At least (if your hardware specs allow) you'll see the scenery rush by if you follow the vehicles to and fro.

[gezzer]

"because at some point (and I believe you've already reached that point) the game is less about fun and more about work/frustration"

And I think that's my problem with underground metro's in a nutshell. I didn't do too much raiding in WoW for the same reason. I play video games to relax after a hard day's work, so I not very impressed when a game that's supposed to create enjoyment becomes work instead.

[lam.singsing]

avenue + tram is another option

[76561197991858962]

Originally posted by lam.singsing:

avenue + tram is another option

Yeah, but all of the stop-and-go traffic makes the passenger queves bunch up, and the satisfaction rating suffers more with choked tram routes than metros due to their lack of speed. I only rely on trams when bringing people from city outskirts to central hubs, and even that causes problems due to balancing speed, road traffic and customer satisfaction.

Since the monorail DLC, monorails have been the way to go. If only the rails didn't float in the air like old strands of spaghetti...

[Phileksa]

I find the metros very efficient. Of course, I'm not trying to line them up with the streets. I wonder how you consider the new metro "more difficult than the old metro." My memory of the old metro was it's extremely high cost combined with the difficulty putting in stations anywhere. In most cities in the first game, there were onely a few places metro stations could even be constructed due to the funky way they were implemented, and it was next to impossible to run enough trains to move all the passengers. People kept saying I needed alternatives to the metros, but they cost so much by the time you had one built, there wasn't any money available for other modes of transportation - at least, not for some time. Worse, even the original Cities In Motion had the whole lots of traffic then no traffic cycle that CiM2 has, only there was no option to set a schedule. As a result, it was very easy to end up building for high traffic, only to find you lose more than what you earned during the peak period during the slow period. Without scheduling and dynamic vehicle storing capabilities, making money become an issue of constantly buying/selling vehicles or sending vehicles to depots and then sending them back out again manually! Ugh!

If I wanted to micromanage everything to the degree where I, the "CEO," is literally bumping on the side of every surplus vehicle during down time and telling it to go to a depot, or I, the "CEO," am walking up and down the aisles of a depot assigning all the surplus vehicles to the currently busiest lines, then my company would naturally fail because I simply wouldn't have time to do anything else!

And that, my dear, is what spoiled Cities In Motion for me, and why I love CiM2 so much.

[Phileksa]

Originally posted by Lone_Wolf:

Originally posted by lam.singsing:

avenue + tram is another option

Yeah, but all of the stop-and-go traffic makes the passenger queves bunch up, and the satisfaction rating suffers more with choked tram routes than metros due to their lack of speed. I only rely on trams when bringing people from city outskirts to central hubs, and even that causes problems due to balancing speed, road traffic and customer satisfaction.

Since the monorail DLC, monorails have been the way to go. If only the rails didn't float in the air like old strands of spaghetti...

Trams are my favorite for in-city transportation. I played around with the monorails, and, while I agree "they're the way to go" due to their game mechanics, I really don't like them too much.

The Metro DLC adds variable metro length to the equation. Set up the schedule with the different time periods, vary the length of the metro, and you got one streamlined engine for earning money! The biggest available metro handles 110 to 470 passengers! O.O With that kind of variable capacity, you don't have to worry terribly much about running it often, and since the biggest cost of running the system is the crew ...

I love trams for a similar reason. Size does matter, and running the biggest tram actually results in a more efficient system.

Of course, size matters in other ways as well: The biggest trams are incredibly long vehicles. In most of the default cities in the game, they have blocks that are almost too short to put anything on. Those same blocks tend to be "tram traps," as trams that get paired up on them in opposite directions literally stop, and wait for the back end of the other tram to clear the intersection it's trying to enter. Too bad they won't use a track reservation system, which would check a distance of the track ahead of the vehicled based on it's current speed to see if the track it's on is clear, and if it is, lock it up for the vehicle in question so nothing else can hop on to it ... XD

I should add that the tram tracks and trolley wires appear to be just a bit, versus the actual road that metro and monorail tracks are, so I can understand if it's difficult to implement track reservation for trams and trolleys. XD

- Just some background information based on my observations.

"Just a bit." In computer terms, it's a means of talking about how much data something takes up. In this case, it's "just a bit," or, in normal language, it's a toggle. Either it's there or it isn't.

I would have to presume all rights of way have two bits - one for tram tracks and one for trolley wires. This would include metro tracks and monorails. But the interface for toggling the bit is missing for the latter two - or maybe the bits are used for something different algorithmically.

There might also be many unused bits - one of which is assigned to monorails, now.

A bit is the smallest amount of memory on a computer you can use to store data. It's literally just 1 (on) or 0 (off). It takes eight bits to make a byte, and so, by logical extension, for a single byte, they can list eight properties on a road that can all be toggled on or off. As some of these can clear others out (for example, legal lane counts) it's possible to use an algorithm to reuse some of these bits (but only under certain circumstances) to save even more data memory!

But that's as complex as I want to go in to on this topic. Needless to say, if all the data on a tram track is "it's there," it makes it incredibly difficult to do any kind of decent vehicle operation on it - especially given the mix of other stuff that could be sharing that same right of way! So what they've done is pretty amazing imho! ^_^