Is Gegenpress still brokenly OP?

[JTW]

So in the past couple of FM games, 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 gegenpress has been incredibly OP in my experience. To the point playing it isn't any fun anymore.

My last game was with Blackburn, who i took over halfway through a season where they were 16th in the table. I drew 2 games, lost 1 and won the rest, meaning i won the FA cup and qualified for europe. Next season i won that too and qualified for CL. With Blackburn.
All i did was put on a 4-3-3 Gegenpress, compliment my players whenever they had a good game or a good training session, and buy a few decent players for the money i had.

That ruins the game for me honestly. I can't pick a different tactic when i know i have an option to pick a tactic that's an instant win. It's not fun for me to gimp myself like that, and so i've been hoping that this final FM game would finally change it so other tactics can be valid as well.

Are they? Or is it the same thing again this year.

[steve silent]

Originally posted by Don:

Originally posted by steve silent:

But if played at a balanced mentality it changes dramatically, especially in the fitness side, you will tend to see players not tire as quick.

and again if played with very defensive. it returns back to a high fatigue game.

Gegenpress is used by many teams as a weapon when the opponent tries to play out of defense and then they retreat if unsuccessful to "hold shape". You can´t really do that in FM since you can´t really change tactics depending on each and every single opponent attempt to play from the back. This is actually the sort of a "balanced gegenpress".

Full out gegenpress is used by very few teams and you need really good players to pull it off, but even M. City when using it slow down the pace at times to allow for a breather. You can´t run "high tempo" for 90 minutes .. unless you play FM :).

Yes i know all about geggenpress, my irl team Huddersfield played it..
And i have played it in every fm since 2016.

I never mentioned high tempo i said VERY ATTACKING.

and you can play for 90 minutes at beginning of season but as the season progresses you have to sub and or rotate. i can go at the most 4-5 matches before fatigue sets in.

[Don Cool]

Originally posted by steve silent:

I never mentioned high tempo i said VERY ATTACKING.

I wasn´t correcting you, was just sort of adding.

You are also right about rotation, I rotate a LOT more in FM than clubs do in real life especially since I am playing every 3rd day and I don´t even employ gegenpress, I do use high tempo though.

Also sending people on holidays left and right after the second international break, the first has 7 days where you can actually just rest them. I am doing well though. This has little to do with which style I am using (I think) ... seems internationals "kill" most of my players.

[pablito15]

The davencid mod helps a little with OP gegen stuff but a lot of the issues are built in

[Shaman King]

Originally posted by gtjbm:

Originally posted by pablito15:

Kinda silly that you have to avoid winning tactics.

I don't agree that potential tactics are more varied than in previous FMs personally. I've been able to set up a few deep counter attacking systems in previous FMs but in this one I haven't been able to.

That's the biggest problem for me in this year's game. last year's FM23 you could use a variety of tactics and in the right game profile / situations. (And i'm like you, like playing pragmatically which worked fine last years)

This year, you cannot its all high press high line loe, which is why the game's a lot easier and consequently a lot more boring and unsatisfying to play. If you try to play more pragmatic, you get bummed.

It's a real downgrade this year. I was very excited when I heard about incorporating positional play into the game and the new roles, but I was expecting an enhancement from the last patch of FM23 with tactical variety rather than a huge decline with only gegenpress viable.

I recall seeing a user post in the SI forums saying he played gegenpress was winning everything. Tried to use other tactical styles, but they were all significantly worse, and there in the end was no point at all using anything other than gegenpress.

Utterly disappointed with the game this year.

when i want to play a true tactical simulator i turn on fm 2013 not this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ we got served in recent years. It was and is still the most realistic and best fm to date with no other better fm in sight.
You could play two hundred million different tactics if you had the players suited for it.
I think as the world gets dumber fm gets dumber also for dumb people that have no idea how tactics works and that its all about customisation and fine details that we could manage with sliders and now we cant because of the dumber engine and also dumber customisation options made for people that dont give a sht about tactics in football.
Just give me a coach license and i bet my computer and my chair im sitting on that i make better tactic for Arsenal in month or two with the guys than Arteta is playing last year and half.

[daveyfunk]

When you actually watch the games you see how pressing impacts on players positioning. People view high pressing as broken because you get majority of results go your way but pressing actually relates to players positioning on the pitch also. As an example, if you played a system with a striker and 4 AM's then high pressing will be effective as the players are already in a position to trigger this immediately. However, if you play high pressing with DM's then high pressing pulls those players out of position where it might be more effective to play a lower block

It depends on your system as to what is 'broken' as you often see people moan about leaking goals when they've dominated possession and this simply could be they dont actually watch games. They're playing high pressing games with player positioning much further back and so players are rushing out of position and leaving spaces

With that said, the ME does naturally favour players pressing the ball and it's very hard to get players to stick rigidly to their position and so naturally higher pressing will 'play the odds' more

I've found for my shape the best results have come from trigger press on slightly more often, mid block, standard defensive line and the right CM and left FB on close down less. This is because I play with a formation that is asymmetrical where I play with an AMCL and DM over to the left and so the AMCL can press harder but has cover from the DM but I want the CM on the right to hold their position more

[Shaman King]

Tiki taka and slow tempo passing game still suck ass even tho its the most succesful tactic of last 15 years. You just cant play barca or mancity style no matter the players you have. Game just dont allow you with the results. The closest i got is left to right wb-bpd bpd-cwb regista -carilero-carilero if(attack) - treq and af on forward. But playing hb with two playmakers its almost impossible...i even tried anchor there and false 9 as striker with different wingers... As i say i didnt crack the formula yet or it is impossible in this fm

[gtjbm]

Yep indeed, I thought the whole point of positional play was to allow more high possession based tactics to work.

Wouldn't even try using the F9 role that's not really feasible to use in such a system again this year. You're probably best trying a DLF instead or a 3atb system for any sort of higher possession system to function, to an average extent.

[Lieutenant Dan]

Originally posted by JTW:

So in the past couple of FM games, 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 gegenpress has been incredibly OP in my experience. To the point playing it isn't any fun anymore.

I can't pick a different tactic when i know i have an option to pick a tactic that's an instant win. It's not fun for me to gimp myself like that,

So, your problem is that high tempo high press is the best tactic, and using isn't fun because you win too much.

and you can't pick a different tactic because it's not the best tactic? and you'll be less likely to win?

so what is it? you want to play the best tactic, but lose games?

[Shaman King]

Originally posted by Pickleman:

Originally posted by JTW:

So in the past couple of FM games, 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 gegenpress has been incredibly OP in my experience. To the point playing it isn't any fun anymore.

I can't pick a different tactic when i know i have an option to pick a tactic that's an instant win. It's not fun for me to gimp myself like that,

So, your problem is that high tempo high press is the best tactic, and using isn't fun because you win too much.

and you can't pick a different tactic because it's not the best tactic? and you'll be less likely to win?

so what is it? you want to play the best tactic, but lose games?

tell me how many titles won gegenpress vs patient possession play in the last years :D. In premier league only liverpool won league 1 time and 1 time UCL vs a weak tottenjam thats nothing :D. Compared to it patient possession play is in another dimension.

[gtjbm]

No, the problem is if you actually want to remain competitive and achieve (especially when you're playing with other humans), you are forced to use gegenpress - because there is no other tactical style that works on the game in that environment. And that's irrespective of having players having attributes that should be able to say for instance, play a very effective lower tempo controlling tiki taka game, or a more defensive catenaccio system.

And regardless, with most people using gegenpress / broken tactics in an online environment (for obvious reasons), if you use anything else you'll simply get exposed not because of one's tactical naivety, but due to a hugely imbalanced match engine that is greatly flawed.

Last year's game there was more flexibility - so why SI decided to remove that for this year's game and make it a gegenpress fest again is beyond me.

[Shaman King]

Last year i tried anchor-ap,ap and fw line was if(supp) , treq in ams and f9 as striker. I was playing bayern slow tempo short passing and it worked decent. I never played better football but it was hard to score. If i try that tactic in this year fm i would be destroyed result wise.

[I am a girl btw]

Originally posted by vladpony:

Tiki taka and slow tempo passing game still suck ass even tho its the most succesful tactic of last 15 years. You just cant play barca or mancity style no matter the players you have. Game just dont allow you with the results. The closest i got is left to right wb-bpd bpd-cwb regista -carilero-carilero if(attack) - treq and af on forward. But playing hb with two playmakers its almost impossible...i even tried anchor there and false 9 as striker with different wingers... As i say i didnt crack the formula yet or it is impossible in this fm

I agree with you, there are definitely possession issues against underdog teams and/or away. It's not so much about the roles but about the formation your opposition has. I play a strikerless 3-4-3 (3 CBs at the back, is OP in FM24) with Bayern with a Libero on support covered by wide centre backs on defend. In midfield I have 2 DMs (Regista or RPM / Segundo Volante) and a Shadow Striker as AMC. The wide players I set up according to how the opposition plays. In most games I have a crazy amount of possession (in some Bundesliag games +80%, something that I have never seen before), there are however games against some underdog teams with an awkward formation (for example a 4-2-2-2 with 2 DMs, 2 AMs, 2 Strikers) and is literally impossible to win the possession battle despite being the much much better team. That is ridiculous. The passing accurancy and composure of smaller teams is just way too high. It has been issued in the forums but there is no response. Personally I think the Team Instruction time wasting is broken and this is what the AI does. Don't even bother playing defensive tactics in Champions League away games, just play a short and slow passing game with time wasting and max. This is the most defending approach you can get.

[pablito15]

Even more than gegenpress the issue now feels to me that there are basically 4 types of goals:

- mistakes playing out
- corners
- throw ins
- pens