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Discussions Rules and Guidelines
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Are you happy with all 3? I heard good things about the NXT stick, any specific advantages/disadvantages that stand out?
Yeah, I enjoy them all. Honestly the only thing I can recommend if you’re going to get the NXT is get yourself the premium version as it has more stuff you can assign and it comes with a bag of goodies that have spare parts and springs if you want to change the stiffness. It ships with the medium one installed and it’s what I have been using. It ships in two boxes and you need to do a bit of assembly (takes like 5 minutes). You also have to calibrate it before using it. Also, I do recommend a separate throttle quadrant. Overall the NXT is a very, very good stick for your money.
- Uses potentiometers as sensors. The main disatvantage of those is low reliability and lifetime.
Logitech Attack 3
Saitek AV8R
Saitek Cyborg series
Thrustmaster T-flight joystick
Thrustmaster USB joystick
Saitek X36 Flight Control System
Saitek X45 Flight Control System
- the same problem as with 3D pro
Thrustmaster T16000M
+ the only one of the category which uses contactless hall sensors of same quality which is used also in thrustmaster hotas warthog. Its reliability, accurancy and its lifetime is on another level in comparsion with sticks mentioned higher.
Thrustmaster Cougar
- it is acutally the outdated product. There used to be the special unofficial upgrade kit to change the pots by hall sensors and upgrade for gimball.
I play DCS for more than 10 years. My actual stick is Virpil. Probably there is nothing better right now.
I currently use a Warthog but I went through a Saitek X45, X52, and X56 to get there and while I have some pretty big issues with all the Saitek stuff I used, their plastic shells and general construction wasn't really one of them. The whole "plastic versus metal" thing seems to have started back when people started getting (and talking about getting) Warthogs some years back and it didn't mean much then and means even less now.
As far as guides for new players in regards to controls/peripherals. I think it is first important to tackle the elephant in the room and talk about the realistic cost of peripherals as a whole and how one should approach their first purchase.
Like a lot of other hobbies, flight simming has entry level, mid-price, and high-end stuff you can buy. Also like a lot of other hobbies, there is a lot of debate about what the "best" entry point is. When I got back into flight simming (via Rise of Flight and DCS A-10C), I didn't have a lot of money to work with so I had to make do with a basic stick (a used Microsoft Precision Pro that I got at a Salvation army store for $5). At first, this seemed like it would be fine since my prior experience with flight sims (back in the 90's) tended to be built around the basic sticks that were pretty common at the time. Because I was basically a new player again (since sims had changed so much), I didn't really know what to expect when it came to PRACTICAL peripheral requirements.
For Rise of Flight, the basic stick worked okay. There were quite a few controls that wouldn't fit very well (mostly mixture, radiator control, altitude throttle, and some of the gun selection options) but as a whole, one could get by pretty well with just a basic entry level stick. For DCS A-10C, the situation was pretty different. Right from the start, it was clear that while it was "possible" to "get by" with a basic stick, there were going to be a lot of gameplay impacting compromises that would inevitably get in the way.
After some time, I upgraded to a used (and rather old) X45 I got used. Coming from the Microsoft Precision Pro, it was a huge upgrade and felt (at least at first glance) like "enough". Once that Honeymoon period ended, it was clear that even though it was better by a significant margin, I was still having to make a lot of compromises in terms of practical function in order to kinda make it work. The extra hats helped a lot but the lack of controls in general required complex and time consuming modifier use that (even with a lot of practice) always slowed things down significantly and made certain procedures more difficult and time consuming than practicality permitted.
This pattern kinda continued when I got the X52 and even the X56. Each had more controls than the last but they all had certain design choices (and even component) choices that impacted their effectiveness on a practical level. One thing that was always pretty common was the poor, jittery potentiometers that Saitek (and later Logitech) would use for any non-Hall sensor axis controls (rotaries and such). The plastic shells that Saitek used were never, ever the problem. it was the cheap electronic components that were the problem.
One thing I did learn when I got into using the X56 is that you have to be REALLY careful about online reviews and even conversations about this stuff on the forums. A very popular Youtuber at the time made a review view of the X56 that talked about ergonomic issues and as if like magic, suddenly a whole bunch of people had exactly the same opinion even if they didn't have a lot of hands-on experience with the setup. It was pretty clear that (like pretty much every online community) certain opinions tended to become fact based only on the influence of the presenter and nothing more. This is also where the whole "plastic versus metal" thing came about as well.
Nowdays, I use a Warthog (that I thankfully got well before prices skyrocketed) and while I don't exactly feel compelled to join the church of Warthog and preach its message, I can say with honesty that getting a setup made with decent electronic components and some good design choices does make for a better underlying gameplay experience and will allow you to do things more readily/efficiently than you could with something cheaper. I know this might be construed as "elitist" but it is just true. One can "get by" fine on cheaper setups but it is pretty clear that there is a real, practical benefit to be had when you use better, more feature rich, more thoughtfully designed equipment.
To be fair, I don't think the Warthog is perfect. The rigid adherence to the idea of making a replica of a real setup sounds good on paper but it does create some minor annoyances when you want to use a replica setup with other aircraft types. For example. The Warthog lacks rotary controls on the throttle grips and while that is fine in terms of keeping with the replica motif, it does mean that using it with jets that have some rotary controls on the throttle (for radar range and the like) can get a bit annoying.
Sadly. The high-end HOTAS market seems to be in a odd place. While there are companies like Virpil that seem very focused on selling a good "bang for the buck" complete HOTAS setup that will cover a lot of different bases without having to buy a lot of different grips/parts, other companies like WinWing seem pretty focused on creating a lot of expensive components that can be combined in different ways without offering a solid "bang for the buck" single HOTAS solution. Again. It is fine if you want replica stuff and are willing to buy several $200+ components but at the moment, Virpil seems to be the only outfit that offers a lot of practical, long-term versatility/value in a single setup. When it comes time to upgrade, I will most likely go Virpil after carefully looking at all the current options. They just seem like the best way to get everything one would need without having to buy a lot of different grips/parts.
One last thing I want to talk about. For someone who is new to the flight sim hobby and doesn't have any frame of reference or context in which to sort through all the advice they receive, it is very important for those of us with experience to be honest when talking about various setups and especially honest about our own experience with various setups and how that impacts our views about them. This is where I might get accused of being "elitist" again but in any hobby based online community I have been in, there is this subset of individuals who will downplay the worth/effectiveness of anything that happens to sit outside their personal budget (even if it is a self-imposed budget). Alongside that. There are also subsets of individuals who don't have a lot of practical, hands-on experience with various setups who will offer strong, aggressive opinions about setups they have never personally used based usually on something that some Youtube pundit or particularly aggressive "I am just telling it like it is!" or "I am just saying things the corporate shills don't want you to hear!" types.
When a new player asks me about what they should buy, I don't immediately tell them to spend a ton of money on a high-end setup but I do feel it is important to give them a honest, practical idea of what their options are and what each option will realistically get them. If a new player simply doesn't have a large budget and can't get a mid/high-end setup, I would never suggest one. If the new player does have a lot of wiggle room in terms of budget, I will tell them to consider getting a higher-end setup first and foremost because it will give them a smoother learning experience, a better play experience overall, and will hold resale value if they opt not to keep at it. I have my own preferences based on my own budget but it is important to set that aside and try to help new players based on their own situation and their own needs. I will never tell a player who bought a entry level HOTAS that they made a bad choice because they didn't spend a lot of money in the same way I will never tell a new player who wants and can afford a high-end setup that they should get a entry level setup because it is "just as good" and any benefit to a higher end setup is "just marketing" or something to that effect.
Sorry for the long post. I know I make a lot of them but this is something I have some strong(ish) feelings about because it is a huge issue not just in the flight simming hobby but also other hobbies I enjoy (like guitar, woodworking, racing sims, etc). There is a lot of punditry and not a lot of actual, honest consideration of all the options and their practical effectiveness.
BTW:
I did use the TMHW for around 6 years. I did pay fortune for it in those times. It was not available in our market, so I had to buy it from oversea country. I had to pay a lot of money for VAT and for duty in those times. Actually it is already in our local stores for more than 40% cheaper than I got it. It used to be good stick when the user did some maintenance on it. I also had problems with the POV hats. Had to change and resolder wiring in it because it was too short and later it broke down which was caused by the HAT mechanism that was hitting the desired wire and did create the tension on it.
In the end of my TMHW era the PCB in throttle had died and I had to contact support to send me the new one.
Still, it used to be one of the most reliable sticks i've had. But after my experience with Virpil I would never come back.
Yes, we do not have force feedback sticks too much in market right now, so most people will buy the spring loaded sticks.
"fun" part of this story is the T-16000m and even much cheaper sticks like Speedlink Black Widow have more realistic behaving of the centering mechanism than the TMHW or X-52. (note, the speedlink black widow is actually very good low budget stick with soft plastic grip with good ergonomy and quite well working potentiometers. It is also easily DIY upgradeable to hall sensors. See the vid under comment) Same you could apply to Ravcore Javelin and some other cheap sticks. The reason is that WARTHOG and X-52 and similar uses one common spring for both axis which is not the best solution. The problem begins when player holds the stick e.g. in some higher longitudinal deflection and now he needs to add some precise lateral adjustment. The result is that with the change of lateral position, the centering force is also increasing to longitudinal position which is not very realistic. Almost every more expensive or cheaper stick than TMHW or X-## uses better centering mechanism than the flagships of Thrustmaster and Saitek.... :D
https://youtu.be/4wcQtBONlqM