is a logitech 3d extreme pro good for heuy and mi8 and bs2?

[The Russian]

also, how hard is it to learn to fly? id love to actually be able to go into a real cockpit of one of those helis and know how to fly XD

[Zombiescu]

well with twist rudder control it might be kinda hard because helicopters rely on rudder alot

[Zombiescu]

but if u want a good joystick for ur money get a thrustmaster flight hotas x got a hat switch buttons and throttle for $50 I have it it is a good one

[Ol' Pappy]

I fly the Huey with a Logitec Force 3D pro. It is imperative that you set one of the buttons on the stick for "Force Trim". It's the thumb button on the real cyclic. It is used all the time to reset your control "center" at your stick's position when you press the button. It relieves all the forces. A helo is no picnic to fly, they are abominable machines. You don't move the controls very much, you fly by pressure. I like flying the Huey very much, but beleive me, you'll have to practice, lots. This being said, this is the best simulation of a helo I've flown, it includes the dreaded ring state vortex.

[startrekmike]

The Blackshark is pretty decent even with a basic stick like yours, you should not have many major problems that will really obstruct your fun and enjoyment of the sim.

That said, the Huey and the Mi-8 may be a different story entirely, you will probably find that the twist control on the stick won't really be ideal and wonl give you the precise feel that rudder pedals can give you.

Keep in mind, I don't say this as some sort of elitist, I had to scrap stuff together to build my rudder pedals just so I could properly enjoy the heli's (as well as Rise of flight) since they require constant rudder (or anti-torque) input to stay where you want in a hover, I am talking very small inputs that may be outside what a twist stick can do without some wrist discomfort.

Is it possible with your stick? I suppose but you will probably have issues.

As I said before, the Blackshark does not need pedals because of it's design, it has two main rotors that spin in opposite directions, thus negating the torque effect that only one rotor would create.

Now, how hard are they to learn? Well, it is not easy, the Huey is not terribly heavy on systems operation but actually flying the thing is very tricky, just hovering takes a lot of practice and a full undersanding of all the forces involved, taking off even requires care as different flight conditions will really throw you off unless you expect them as they come. Landing the Huey is another story entirely, it is very difficult and requires very precise control over the whole aircraft.

The Mi-8 is a little easier to phyiscally fly but it is more heavy on systems, it has two engines, a apu and some pretty complicated weapon panels to navigate and as of right now, the whole cockpit is in Russian so it is better if you have a little experience, if you don't, you will be spending a long time looking for stuff.

The Blackshark is probably the easiest to fly, it is stable, has a lot of flight control systems (called "autopilot" channels but they do a lot more than the name implies) and since it does not have a tail rotor, it is very easy to get it into very stable flight and super easy to get into a hover.

The big challenge with the Blackshark is that it is pretty system heavy and not only that, you are doing a job that normally goes to two different poeple, if you look at a Apache or a Hind, you will see a pilot and a gunner, in the Ka-50 Blackshark, you are both and that can get pretty hard to juggle when you are first getting the hang of it all.

The weapons systems are both simple and complex at the same time, you need to understand how it all works but once you do, deploying weapons is fairly straigthforward.

So, are they hard to learn? yes, they are but that is kinda the point, if you are not the kind of person that can deal with reading manuals, reading about the actaul tactics, looking up different checklists and charts and all that stuff, you might not like flying a DCS level aircraft simulator, the learning experience is the whole thing and it is very rewarding.

As a side note, I suggest you look into the A-10C (not the A-10A) module for DCS world if you want something that works well without rudder pedals, not only that but it is the most complex of the DCS modules in terms of system interaction, if you can learn the A-10C, you can learn all the other modules without much difficulty.

In closing, I just want to make this super clear, the A-10C, P-51D, UH-1H Huey, Mi-8 and the Blackshark modules are going to be very complex with very sharp learning curves, if you are not the type that likes doing a lot of bookwork and reading, you might not like learning them, I have plenty of friends who "can't be bothered" to learn them becuase they are a hobby in themselves.

[The Russian]

ill enjoy the challenge XD, and also, as a career path for me, i wouldnt mind being a pilot, so when i go to flight school i wouldnt mind already knowing alot more than what my collegues already know.

[startrekmike]

Originally posted by Scholtz:

The big challenge with the Blackshark is that it is pretty system heavy and not only that, you are doing a job that normally goes to two different poeple, if you look at a Apache or a Hind, you will see a pilot and a gunner, in the Ka-50 Blackshark, you are both and that can get pretty hard to juggle when you are first getting the hang of it all.

I wouldn't say so. Apache is very task-heavy and requires two pilots. KA-50 doesn't require two as flying it simply just programming KA-50 to do what you want and then focus to surrounding and engagements.

KA-50 is very simple helicopter to fly and operate even as single pilot.
But on computer systems where you have just one display it can be a burtain as you lose the view of surrounding when zooming in Skhval screen (even with using TrackIR systems).
Once you use a dual-screen setup where Skhval is below your main display and you don't need to change main screen view to see where you are aiming, it blows your mind how easy it is as you can constantly keep an eye what is happening around you, even without KA-50 flying route or set mode.
A great setup is 4 display setup, 3 to widescreen view (you can see around just by looking and then fourth display showing Skhval below center display.

Or then get a very large TV to give better immersion and again Skhval center of your view.

If flying KA-50 without autopilot channels and not understanding how trimming works, it can be very hard to learn to fly, neverless to fly and engage targets.

I was comparing it to already existing DCS Helicopter modules and in comparison to the Huey and the Mi-8, it is pretty system heavy and will require a entirely different mindset when flying.

On top of that, while it is easy to park the Ka-50 in a hover and take your hands off the controls to launch anti-tank missiles or use the cannon, it does take a bit more active involvement when you are acting as the "commander" that is spotting targets, using the datalink to relay those targets to your flight mates, operating your own weapons at targets you have the opportunity to attack and keeping the aircraft from flying into a mountain because you are hugging the ground for cover.

If you are operating alone, it is a bit easier becasue you don't need to worry about wingmates but you are still going to come into situations where you need to operate your weapons while flying the helicopter and not everyone can either afford or perhaps have room for a multi-monitor setup.

I am glad you have the money and space needed for such things but it does not make what I posted less true for others.

Until we have a Longbow, modern Cobra or a Hind, I will maintain that the Ka-50 is the most system heavy of the heli's we have right now for DCS.

[startrekmike]

Originally posted by Scholtz:

Originally posted by startrekmike:

I was comparing it to already existing DCS Helicopter modules and in comparison to the Huey and the Mi-8, it is pretty system heavy and will require a entirely different mindset when flying.

You compared it to AH-64 Apache not to other DCS helicopters, as I quoted you.

Until we have a Longbow, modern Cobra or a Hind, I will maintain that the Ka-50 is the most system heavy of the heli's we have right now for DCS.

Then do not compare it to AH-64 Apache what we do not have in DCS. And flying Mi-8MTv2 isn't much easier than flying KA-50. You just don't have fancy avionics but still there is same burtain and tasks to do when flying, engacing and managing the wingmens, it actually is even harder because there is no datalink or other fancy things available but required to more visual awarness and marking targets with smoke rockets.

Both KA-50, UH-1H or Mi-8MTv2 are as easy if wanted just to get "in the action", others are just more analog and visually operated and lots of quessing of ranges etc than KA-50.
This just by comparing required amount of buttons in Sim mode to actually get similar results of actions, actually Mi-8MTv2 requires even more clicking to fire than what does KA-50. It is said that KA-50 is so easy to operate that pilots from other helicopters can learn to operate it in 5-10 minutes, and it is true. Many simmer has said that KA-50 is almost boring to fly because it is just guiding autopilot to fly and then aim+shoot with few buttons targets.

Personally I would cladly take AH-64 Apache (A or more likely D model) with Co-Op feature (once they get it working in UH-1H and Mi-8MTv2) because it would require lots of work from both to even acquire targets and fire. It would have lots of more operating than KA-50. Same thing is with Mi-8MTv2 that it would be much nicer to fly with a co-pilot what would take half of the tasks what one alone can do faster and easier in KA-50.

I think you misunderstand, the point of my post was never to compare anything to a Apache or any other attack heli we don't have in DCS world, I was simply providing context for the increased workload of the Ka-50, it is indeed the only dedicated attack helicopter that is single seat and probably will be the last one, even the Ka-52 has two seats.

As I said before, the Ka-50 is a breeze to fly and a breeze to fight in but when you are doing both as well as dealing with coordinating with your wingmen via the datalink, you kinow, really squeezing every bit of functionality out of the helicopter and using it the way it would be used in real life, then you will see that it is a pretty demanding platform.

Sure, the Mi-8 has more switches to press when activating weapons but those weapons are all unguided, you don't need to do anything but make passes so you can focus entirely on flying while you make your gun and rocket runs.

To be pretty honest, I think there is probably on a small fraction of simmers who actually use everything the Ka-50 has to offer, they use it like a lone wold attack aircraft when it is desinged to work in small teams with a lead aircraft (of a different type) providing target info, since we don't have the Ka-27 (I think that is the one, I could be wrong), once must use another Ka-50 as a leader/recon. Once you start really using all the systems together as they were intended, it becomes a lot to deal with in comparison.

If you just hop in, fly to your target and launch some missiles, yeah, it is easy but that is not all it can do and if you really explore it's specific role, you will see that it is not really as easy as a lot of folks think.

That is why I absolutely maintain that the Mi-8 and the Huey are easier aircraft to deal with in combat, you just point and shoot, you don't ever really need to worry about datalinks, targeting systems, various guided weapons or anything like that, you just fly the helicopter and press the trigger, a lot of the weapon prep work is done before you enter combat.

Unless you are silly and park your Ka-50 in a hover while you attack, you are going to need to think about flying while you are aiming your weapons and keeping a eye out for threats (and the terrain), this is tough for real pilots, it is no different here.

So I will say again, I was not comapring the Ka-50 to the Apache or anyting like that, I was using the Apache merely as a example to discuss the increased workload in combat for a single pilot.

[startrekmike]

At this point, I don't even know what we are debating anymore, perhaps it is because I build missions that put one player in the position that a Ka-52 might be put in and since I usually occupy that position, I find that the workload is higher than someone who is just flying around and shooting stuff.

When all is said and done, you still just point and shoot with the Huey and the Mi-8, you don't ever need to stop actively flying the aircraft, you don't need to pay attention to the Skhval screen or anything like that, you just fly the aircraft and look down the sights when you want to fire (since you already prepped your weapons beforehand).

While it is true that you can use the autopilot to handle mosat of the flyiong in the Ka-50, I would not want to use that system when I am in a active combat area as much as I might while just cruising around, the autopilot can indeed get you in trouble if you are not careful so it is best to not be "head down" in the cockpit while hoping the AP knows what is going on.

My original point and perhaps something that has been entirely lost in this debate is that the Ka-50 is not as simple as the Huey or the Mi-8 in terms of weapon systsms operation, firing guided missiles with the Ka-50 requries a bit more attention, dealing with all the different combat, avionics and communications systems makes the aircraft a more complex experience overall, is it "harder", well, that depends, it is easy enough to learn but being easy does not mean that it is somehow equal to aircraft that require a great deal less from the pilot (like the Mi-8 and the Huey) in terms of systems and avionics operation.

Again, just because it is not hard does not mean that is somehow less complex, I am not debating the difficulty, I am simply saying that there is more to learn with the Ka-50 when it comes ot actually using it to it's full potential as opposed to just flying around in autopilot, stopping in a hover, firing some missiles and going back to base.