difference between GBU-12 and GBU-38

[kain]

hi. i know how to drop them and all that good stuff.... im just not sure what the difference is.

one drops using the ASL ball that drops threw the CCRP reticle (put the small ball in the big ball)

the other drops when the CCRP reticle starts to unwind. and theirs 2 arrows inside which indicate range. when it unwinds between the 2 arrows, drop da bomb.

so....
1. why the difference in dropping? because ones GPS and the other LAZOOOR guided??
2. which bomb allows me to sit the farthest away so i dont get SAMed

thanks!

[fearlessfrog]

The GBU 15 is a guided bomb that uses a continuous IR/laser or image designation. It has a sensor that communicates back to your guiding aircraft and tail fins on the bomb steer it.

The GBU 38 JDAM is a guided bomb that uses a programed impact point and an internal self-steering guidance system (INS/GPS). It can either have a predetermined target or be given one in flight, from your aircraft.

[kain]

right... but which one/type has a greater standoff range?

[kain]

shouldent i be able to drop from range, and the guidance system, insted of guiding it in an arc from my plane striaght down, should be able to "fly" the missle close to level.... getting more range, and then dropping into its final decent?

[fearlessfrog]

In theory the JDAM has the greatest standoff range, but really for SAMs you need to fly a Su25T or an AI wild weasel flight. Bombing SAM sites is pretty risky

[kain]

fortune favors the bold!!!

lol, thanks much.

[[GCA] King Apo]

That sounds awfully like misinformation my Dear Frog! :D

It entirely depends on what kind of SAM you are attacking. You are hopefully aware that there is generally 2 (or 3) types of Ground based Airdefence: Radar guided SAM & IR guided SAM (heat seeking) and Anti Aircraft Artillery(AAA), of the first there are many SAM's that can't shoot you at higher altitudes & higher ranges, but some that will go really really far, like Patriot & S300.

Of the second they have always a ceiling above they just can't lock you. I think for all IR SAMs in DCS that is about 18'000 feet, but I could be wrong here. Strelas for example will be docile at about 12k feet.

Note that the ceiling the SAM can shoot you on depens on the SAM's altitude too, if it sits on a mountaint that is 3k feet above sea level & your altimeter is set to sealevel you need to add 3k feet to your "I am safe and can orbit over the AO"-calculation. :)

Which of those two you can, in theory drop further away from target I have no idea, but in practice you won't need that.

When you reach a target area (even at 30+nm out), the 1st thing you do is generate a small picture of the Area (in your head not screenshot^^). Second look for all threats via TGP and mark them with MarkPoint (TMS right i believe) and start engaging the highest threats with PGM/Mavericks. (Note: Use RWR to see if there is a active Radar SAM in the area, always assume THERE IS a IR SAM and stay above 12k feet until you or your wingman confirm all SAM's are eliminated)

There are some .pdf's flying around where all the SAM's/AAA in DCS are listed with their max/min engagement range & height parameters. That should greatly help you in understanding how to deal with them.

This is why I initially said, 'This is misinformation' with the right bombs (GBU 12/10 Laser, or GBU30/38 GPS) you can take out many air defenses without exposing yourself to danger. How far this is realistic is another thing, but we are talking game here right.^^

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=110840&highlight=RWR+mod I highly recommend you use this mod in the A-10C, it really adds to the experience, there is a small tool included too, in which you may learn the different sounds for the different RWR contacts. I admit, I don't have that down myself. :3

@Frog&others, are you sure the IR 'lase' can be used to guide laser guided bombs? I was never able to do that myself, and especially not with a recurring bug I often have with the laser after rearming/repairing.

[fearlessfrog]

Sure, where I used the shorthand SAM, I didn't mean Strela but more on the S300 end of the scale. Using an A10C with guided bombs isn't a weasel profile in reality. Mid-class SAM over 18k are ok, but that's more a DCS thing as there isn't (yet) a playable HARM platform. Some AAA but not SAM in A10 for me personally - that's what other flights are for

The laser isn't used to guide a GBU -15 I don't believe, but to provide accurate distance info for the SPI - the guidance of where to go is provided back from the targeting platform. I'd have to check, but my tolerance for misinformation is fairly good ;)

EDIT: OP was asking for info about GBU 12 and I replied with GBU 15 info, so that probably didn't help..

[[GCA] King Apo]

Oops, after a wall of text you come here and simply tell me I misunderstood the question. DAMN IT! :3

[fearlessfrog]

Yours was good info, I just typed in what those two GBU's did on my phone late last night rather than leave the guy hanging - it's all good

[kain]

im learning from every post. so.... keep posting.

a GBU 12 and a GBU 15 should not be that different. right?

but...for some reason i actually decided i need to know how this ♥♥♥♥ works to play multiplayer..... insted of just loading up with 4 AIM 9s and 6 mavs, which are "easy" and derping around....now i can now load everything and know how to use it and not get shot at.

getting shot at sucks....little known fact.

[fearlessfrog]

I think the GBU 12 (commonly called the 'Paveway 2') is actually laser guided, as in it has a nose sensor that is trying to find a reflection send from another source (like your aircraft's laser emitter). If the target isn't being lazed then the bomb will just keep trucking on it's last info it had. It's a 500 pound bomb, basically a Mk 82 with a nice smart hat and fins.

The GBU 15 uses a datalink connection where the aircraft can send updated target data (like from an A10C AN/AAQ-28 LITENING targeting pod), and the bomb steers itself towards that. It's a 2000 pounder (like a Mk 84) and can cause a pretty big bang for high value targets.

[[GCA] King Apo]

Hey, GBU 15 was a mistake on Frogs part. :) I had to google it myself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-15 this bomb is not on any playable DCS plane so far. (Don't know about AI would have to check^^)

"Guidance system: Manual guidance by radio datalink with TV or Imaging Infra-red" Sounds more like a high dropped maverbomb. xD

I repeat:
GBU 12/10 are laser guided bombs, as in you need to actively do something to guide the weapon to the ground. Either you manually lase the target or have auto lase set up beforehand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA1pXR62qF4). Basically your laser has fo fire on them while your bomb drops (or rather after a certain time*1) to guide towards & hit the target.

I missed something in your first post, CCRP difference for GBU12/10 is that there are numbers counting down from ~20 towards 0 at which you have to press & hold the pickle/weapon release button.

*1 Let's get back to that when 3 of your 20 laser guided bomb's dont hit.

GBU 31 (why did I say 30 before?) & 38 are GPS guided bombs, you 'save' your target coordinates into the computer when designating a SPI with TMS UP/FWD. Now when the CCRP solutions is ready for drop and you press&hold the pickle/weapon release button the GPS data gets transmitted into the bomb and it flys off without any further need for input.
^This is interesting because if you didn't hold and press the button you will get a error and the bomb goes on strike.

GBU 31/38 is difference to the laser bombs on the HUD are the arrow thingy's you remarked upon. Google even has a picture for me: http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/12/full-3210-23372-hud1.jpg I guess since you ask this stuff you already know how to drop them and what that stuff means, if not please say so. Just adding that for other people who may search for this. :)

About the Mavs, you should always remember that every weapon increases drag which decreases speed&maneuverability. This count's especially for triple racks (mavs/mk82*3 etc. ) & big bombs. (CBU's,MK84&GBU10/31)

They do not only have more weight but also lot's of drag. Lets say you have 75% fuel one TGP, 2x AIM9, + a jammer or another 2x AIM9. That stuff is mostly on all hogs in DCS but may be left out depending on what you (want to) do.

The 3 mav's (triple rack) always add lot's of drag, but 2x per station is very tolerable and if you only have one you can get really fast even with bombs. Maximum should be 4x mavs, 4x bombs + 1x rockets. That is a very heavy loadout. Especially if two of those bombs are something heavier like CBUs.

About loadout and how heavy you go, there is some stuff at mission start you should ask yourself everytime: 'what ♥♥♥♥ may go down?' ... Do you expect Air/ SAM threats, if yes what kind (BRIEFING!) and at what altitude do you feel safest / may attack best etc.

Sometimes the target area is so close to base that the poor hog can't climb up (let's say 20k feet in the mountains to escape a strela) fast enough to with all those 6x mavs and 6x bombs until you reach the danger zone on the first waypoint. :D

But if the missions is simply to destroy forty tanks in a open field... I can understand all those triple racks and for training purpose this may be done but a better way would be a singleplayer mission with unlimted weapons and a realistic loadout.

But the second some ♥♥♥♥♥♥ FC3/MiG21 guy comes to screw with your day you better either hit the big red button the top left and dive... Or go up in flames. In my experience speed& altitude work best against all active SAM threats.

In PVP you have to include the factor that fighter/ewr/awacs see you better at higher ALT which might get very troublesome. Hiding behind mountains is always an options against most DCS projectiles & missiles but may need some serious skill in the TGP/orientation/situational awareness department that I still lack after over 2 years. :D

Some stuff you might be interested in... :)

List of threats and their RWR and their letters on the RWR: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/668690/

Here is a very nice threat list with their max range/alt included in this document pack. I highly recommend it. The first 3 documents (RWR, Airfield Guide & Weapon types should help you greatly) https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/86362/

There was another with better & bigger pictures for the RWR/SAM/AAA threats but I can't find it right now, sorry.

Also another personal tipp for CCRP deliverys: Don't just fly straight to the target unless you are REALLY high, like way way above all enemy threats. If not, fly a few miles off the target a few miles and turn in.
(You will get a feel with practice when & at what altitude you can drop the bombs/ get a CCRP solution) Once you see either the CCRP numbers for the laser bombs or the marks for the GPS bombs move turn into the target and add a small dive angle about -minus 5-15°.

Anyone else can add to my above point? Maybe it's placebo but I feel like my bombs drop way more accurately.

edit: nijad by frog xD
edit2: typos, tip & readability. Sorry for a second wall of text. :p

[fearlessfrog]

Yep, sorry about that. I know the GBU 15 from, um, not DCS, and it can be carried by the F15E in reality. Actually, I don't think the Hog ever carried it anway.. Oops.

[[GCA] King Apo]

DCS: F-15E RELEASED XX/XX/XXXX - with GBU-15!

Frog said so... GOTCHA! :3

/banned

[Tatsue]

Цитата допису Kain (420?):

shouldent i be able to drop from range, and the guidance system, insted of guiding it in an arc from my plane striaght down, should be able to "fly" the missle close to level.... getting more range, and then dropping into its final decent?

Just an added note: while these weapons do qualify as "missile" weapons in the same way a bow and arrow or thrown rock does, it does also share with them the quality of being ballistic; that is, they are unpowered. They follow the course given by kinetic energy, gravity, and aerodynamic drag.

Flying "close to level" would thus require constant input from control surfaces. Meaning drag. Meaning slowing down. Meaning LESS range, not more! (There are two important forms of drag as well - one parasitic drag (basically air resistance), second induced drag (slowdown caused by aerodynamic interaction such as aerofoils, control surface ation, etc))

Basically, your proposed method of extending range actually would do the opposite. The point of laser/gps guided "smart" bombs are NOT to extend range. It is to make them hit a very precise location. They also serve differing purposes - laserguided bombs can be continually guided by moving the laser indicator, whereas GPS guided bombs of standard format are "fire and forget"; their target coordinate is downloaded during firing sequance (while holding the weapon release button, also firing the chemical battery to power it), and after release that's where they're going no matter what you might feel about it afterwards.

(Modern datalinks can change this, but most "JDAM" style GPS guided bombs are meant to be cheap strapon "upgrades" to standard "dumb" bombs, whereas several laser-guided weapons are the same but more expensive with a laserhead in the front. Datalinking GPS munitions does not necessarily achieve anything more than what can already be done with the laser upgrade set.)

Extended range is achieved in other ways, for example glide bombs, but these require delivery from a fast-jet at high altitude - a desirable launch platform could be an F-22 at 45 thousand feet doing mach 2. That thing can then glide, while controlled for precision by onboard computers, for a LONG range due to the combination of high initial speed and low air density at those altitudes.

...planes like the A-10 do, however, not get even close to the required speeds and altitudes to be a viable delivery vehicle of such bombs.