Request: Advice on HOTAS

[Ranko]

To start off, tl;dr is in the bottom. I just recently started playing DCS: World, I did play flying games in the past (some space sims and arcade flying like HAWX), and it only took me one lesson (taking off the SU-25T Frogfoot) to realise that:
1. This game is awesome (I love the detail, the takeoff, required procedures, explanations, full functioning cockpits and a whole list of other stuff)
2. This game is impossible with keyboard and mouse (I actually forgot most of the key combinations to turn on the electrical systems, nav lights and engines before hitting the runway and the flying with the arrow keys feels very, VERY slow/sluggish)

So I went looking for a HOTAS, I've spent whole days in looking for one. The problem I'm having is that the more reviews I watch/read, the less decisive I become.
I have a Logitech G19 gaming keyboard, which I love for it's light and smooth typing. So that would be the most logical choice and actually they had a HOTAS, the Logitech G940. I saw one good review saying the thing was awesome and a some reviews saying the potention meters were the worst on the planet and should only be used to start a fire..

So that one was kind of ruled out, next thing I saw was the Saitek (x52 was pretty soon ruled out), the Saitek X65F seemed nice but it's not buyable as it seems discontinued. It's follow up was the X55, which at first seemed awesome. But there were a lot of complaints on the stick just being sluggish/heavy and non-linear and most were just starting to curse at the thing, the throthle on the other hand, was very good and everyone loved it (apart from some guys playing Elite Dangerous that wanted to switch between modes rapidly).

I then came accross the Thrustmaster Warthog replica, which most people conceded as the BEST you can get (though some minor complaints about switches, the overall rating was very good) but at a €400+ pricetag it's not something to decide on in a minute. Especially if you consider the "stiction issue" all Warthog sticks seem to get after "just" a few months.

In the comments on reviews I read very good things about CH Products. Things like, "the outside may look like plastic, but the inside (which matters) is all quality stuff". Some report using their CH Products sticks for over a decade and it still feels the same as on unboxing day.. The fact that they make military products as well, makes me kind of swinging in their way and I'm seriously considering buying a CH Products Fighterstick and their Pro Pedals. But then I came accross another problem, the SU-25T Frogfoot (and a lot of other planes) have more than one engine and, for the sake of realism (let's say one catches fire), I'd like to control both engines seperately (which is impossible with the CH Products throthle).. I really like the Saitek X55 throthle, is there a way to get it seperately (without the stick)?

What are your overal thoughts on the systems mentioned (G940, Saitek X55, TM Warthog and CH Products) or could you recommend alternatives?
I know it's a long read and I'm sorry for that, I just wanted to make the question clear as I spent a LOT of time in going through reviews. Thank you for your time and help :)

[kazereal]

In short, Warthog is the best HOTAS available for consumers at the moment.
Many have been recommending X55 for lower-cost alternative, no experience of it myself.

[El Jefe]

I've got a complete CH Products set: Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals. Love 'em. If the only reason you're not getting them is because you want a throttle for each engine, then that's your onus. There is a secondary throttle on the Fighterstick itself, which you could map as a second throttle, but it's not the same as having two in one hand. I just have mine setup for both at once. Need to practice more to see what an engine out does. I'm pretty sure if you shutdown one engine, the throttle only operates the running engine. But if you wanted differential thrust...hmmm...I'd have to see...fair point...maybe. I'm not sure for such a quality (my opinion) controllers and for the price point, it's still worth it (my opinion.)

[Stone_313]

I personally went from Logitech 3D Pro to the Warthog and even tho it was an expensive leap, it was worth it. The only "real" problem i've had with it, and basically everyone else, has been the slew control thing. The little knob is annoying at first but once you fiddle with the sensetivity and get used to it, it's not that big of an deal.

As for the the stick getting sticky.. Mine is still smooth as a butter and i've had it for like 6'ish months.

As you can prolly see, im biased towards the hog, so im not sure how much of an help this is.

Is the lack of "split throttle" the only reason you aren't considering the X52?

[Chameleon_Silk]

I have the X52 non pro for a few years now it is probably the best jump in point providing enough hats and buttons to do everything you need.

when it breaks which im sure it will eventually I will be looking at jumping up a notch but then again if I found a shop with an X52 sitting there I probably wouldn't hesitate to pick it up and replace the broken one with a new one.

about engine fires, you shut down the flaming engine you don't throttle it back which is done with a keybind that you can map (rctrl + end = right engine off, alt + end = left engine off)

split throttle while nice is not really a big selling point in my opinion what matters more is that you have enough hat switches and the joystick has a very small deadzone.

having said that the X52 does require a bit of curves and deadzone manipulation and I'm sure the warthog fairs better in terms of smoothness of the stick moving around but I still recommend the X52 because it does work well and at a budget level, certain features like the mouse emulating ministick I've come to love since I don't have trackIR, I really like that i can fly HOTAS and still look around.

[geistXIII]

Never had the x52 myself, but some of my friends do and all they had was problems. Especially on the driver side it seems like a game of bingo. If you get lucky things work out of the box. If not , you'll probaly end up with several hours of fiddling around.
I have the Warthog and I really can recommend it. I have it now for nearly two years and I used it for several hundred hours and have no problems so far. I even once dropped my thrust to the ground (from around +1m height). The throttle is fine, my floor wasn't xD The stick has his price, but in my opinion it's worth it. Only "bad" thing (beside of the slew stick, which was already mentioned), is that you need some rudder pedals, but every thing is better with pedals, so I wouldn't call it that bad ;)

[Ranko]

Thanks for the comments, again the tl;dr is in the bottom :) I actually wouldn't expect this much responses. I read them all and I'll respond to each and everyone of them :)
@kazareal. Thank you for the info, I was certainly considering the Warthog.

@El Jefe. Thanks for the info, good to hear from an All CH Product owner. In fact you make a valid point, stating that the trothle would only control the active engine (that makes perfect sense). I think differential thrust would only be interesting for stunt manouvres and such, which for the first months (or maybe year) would not be done.. How long do you have your CH Products?

@StoneCold313. Every info is welcome, glad you don't have the sticky issue. I guess it's a matter of bad luck then?
The lacking of the dual throthle was not the only thing keeping me away from the X-52. A lot of DOA reports, people complaining about it not being sensitive/having a huge dead-zone and the crappiest software in the world and an even worse CS (so I heard) pushed me away. I heard problems started when MadCatz got involved in 2007, before that the X-52 was a good HOTAS, but after 2007 things went very much downhill (based on the info I read/heard, I can't confirm this).

@Chameleon_Silk. How long do you have the X-52? Was it before or after MadCatz got involved? (out of curiosity).
I'm not on a budget, but I tend to be picky (you can't see it, but I spent €200 on Altberg military boots like half a year back and actually I love every inch I walk on them). I want quality and I'm aware that it goes with a higher price. But that's fine with me. The shutting off the engine remark (as mentioned before) is very legit and it would make a lot of sense for the throthle only to control the active engine. I was looking into TrackIR, it's a cool piece of hardware. Though I aslo saw someone that had a logitech (HD) webcam with a special type of software that did a very good job, but at a way lower price (http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm). I apologize if this isn't relevant for you.

@Geist. That's a lot of the same from what I've read/heard and that's actually the main reason not getting one. Sure I'm a technical guy and I'll probably get it working after a while.. But when I am playing a sim, I don't want to be the techie for once, I just want to enjoy the great experience of being a (fighter) pilot, racer or whatever sim/game I'm doing.
Actually the last time I had a joystick (which was over 10 years ago) I really liked it. It broke after I applied too much pressure and it broke on the X-axis, rendering it useless (I was really caught up in the game, sometimes it still happens to me which is why I would prefer a thing that's hard, or harder to break :P). Having that said, the joystick I had didn't have a rudder control either and I think I would only get annoyed if I accidently yaw the plane trying to make it go into a spin (that's one of my mayor concerns of not buying a turning joystick). I was planning on pedals anyway (probably the CH Pro pedals).

I think that makes down for 2 competitors then (I'm willing to drop the dual engine control, as you proved it to be quite useless). As I mentioned my concerns of accidental yawing (just a few lines up), that leaves only 2 "competitors" really.
- CH Product Fighterstick and Throthle (and of course the Pro pedals)
- TM Warthog (with pro pedals).
Thanks a lot for the help so far. I'll do some more reading and hopefully make a good decision. If you have tips, hints, recommendations or just want to shoot a bullet through my plane for these long posts, feel free to contact me :)

[Stone_313]

^

I think the software is a POS with all the sticks on the market atm. They all seem to be from the 80's and are generally horrible. xD

Thankfully you hardly need the actual program they offer. I only use the Warthog software to control the lights on the throttle.

I tried the facetrackNOIR before i got my trackIR, and i had loads of trouble with it going crazy because of my glasses. But there is loads of guides around about making the IR led clip yourself, won't cost much and it seems to work. Downside is unless you have access to like a 3D printer, the whole clip will look really makeshift.

Anyways, good luck with the decision making. Hopefully you'll find the right match for you. :)

[Ranko]

As long as it works, looks are less important to me. The G19 software works pretty well (and looks kinda good, which is a plus but if it worked and it would look like a straight Win98 app I wouldn't be too bothered cause at least it does what it's supposed to do). But if it's garbage AND looks bad, it's going through the window (nope I won't even open the window, too much effort XD)

One thing I heard a lot of people saying is that the Warthog is usable for the A-10C, but less usable for other planes (I find this pretty weird, but whatever). It seems you need the Warthog software to create profiles for other planes, can you verify this?

Glasses and webcams, not a good combo at all really. I'm sorry it didn't work for you, glad to hear you have a well working TrackIR now :) Unfortunately I don't have acces to a 3D printing device, though they're declining rapidly in price.. If it's going on like this, they might even get so cheap that every household can get one :P I'll certainly look into making it, as I still like making stuff (technical side).
Thanks for the info :)

[Korbelz]

X-52: I flew with this for years loved it. only mod I did to it was stiffen the spring on the joystick. the price is great for what you get. sadly might broke during my last move.

I now use the X-55. This is a manly stick! you can easly swap out the springs to change how stiff the joystick is, I have the most stiff spring in mine. feels much more solid that the X-52. I only have a few hours of flying with it so far. joystick seems good to me, I had to mod it by placing a foam pad on the lower hand rest because my thumb couldn't reach the top hat switch without slightly moving my hand.

the presicion on this the stick is unreal to me, I was doing some A-R practice with the A-10C once I was in postion behind the tanker I litterly never "moved" the stick again. Just applying fingertip force to it, it was picking that up.

downside of that is I found when I deathgripped the stick seems to pick up at least a tiny rudder input. the only time I found this annoying was on my first take-off/landing becauce I was trying to stay perfectly on centerline but still had by NWS on. I could probably fix with by widen the deadzone but isn't a big enough isssue for me to bother with.

The throttle is about as perfect of a throttle as I've ever used. :)

[Ranko]

Thank you for your info, Korbelz. I've heard very good things about the throttle indeed :) I read it was heavy to move, which is good, how heavy do you have your throttle setting?

As for the stick, good to hear a possitive user experience (I really like it, as it was inspired by an F-18 fighting plane stick and the throttle is just amazing from what I can see).. I would get pedals anyway, I think I just can't get used to yawing with the joystick or would get annoyed by the accidental yawing (as mentioned before) but I heard it can easily be enabled/disabled in the software (it was a tickbox, right?).

Did the fingertip force move the joystick out of center or was it in center registering force?
Thing is, I really wanted the X-65F for it's force sensing (no moving parts e.g.) and awesome throttle. It's such a shame it's discontinued, I would get it in an instant if I could get my hands on one really. I don't know if you've used the X65F, but do you think the X-55 is a worthy succesor of the X65F?

[Stone_313]

Originally posted by Ranko:

As long as it works, looks are less important to me. The G19 software works pretty well (and looks kinda good, which is a plus but if it worked and it would look like a straight Win98 app I wouldn't be too bothered cause at least it does what it's supposed to do). But if it's garbage AND looks bad, it's going through the window (nope I won't even open the window, too much effort XD)

One thing I heard a lot of people saying is that the Warthog is usable for the A-10C, but less usable for other planes (I find this pretty weird, but whatever). It seems you need the Warthog software to create profiles for other planes, can you verify this?

Glasses and webcams, not a good combo at all really. I'm sorry it didn't work for you, glad to hear you have a well working TrackIR now :) Unfortunately I don't have acces to a 3D printing device, though they're declining rapidly in price.. If it's going on like this, they might even get so cheap that every household can get one :P I'll certainly look into making it, as I still like making stuff (technical side).
Thanks for the info :)

Someone just posted today to /r/Hoggit about making your own trackIR from pens and whatnot..

http://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/2wl04k/heres_a_quick_overview_to_make_your_own_trackir/

^ the link if you wanna take a look at it.

As for the warthog, yes with the A-10C it's just plug and play. No need to fiddle with anything(maybe the joystick curves to find your sweet spot). You do need to set up your controls to the other platforms you have, but that all can be done from the game itself. No need to the software. Like i said, i only use it to control the leds on the throttle. Mostly people suggest that you don't install the whole software.

You might actually need the software is when you are trying to set up all the buttons in Arma or something(loads of the switches doesn't work straight up but all the important things do).

Also im not 100% sure if you need the software to set it up in other flight sim games, but i really doubt it.

*edit*

Also bookmark /r/Hoggit for all your DCS/flightsim needs. :)

[Ranko]

Thank you, StoneCold313. Both sites are bookmarked. I'll look into them tomorrow or Sunday, as I was about to get into bed before midnight for a change (which is probably 20 minutes away after typing this message :P). Many thanks for the links :D

As for the software, it seems to be called T.A.R.G.E.T., it looks fairly easy (and not even that bad) but of course that doesn't say anything about functionality. I think, if the choice becomes the Warthog, I'll give the software the benifit of the doubt and at least give it a chance to prove itself (everyone/-thing deserves a chance for that XD).

Thanks again, you've given really good help (I wish I could give a medal for that, but I can't really :( my pigeon wouldn't know where to fly XD)

[El Jefe]

I've had my Fighter Stick and Pro Throttle for 4 years now. Smooth action, with very little deadzone, and nice easy precise control. My Flight Sim Yoke (which I don't use for DCS, but for FSX) and pro pedals are older, but I'm not sure how old. I inherited them from a co worker that moved. But they all work great. In fact, I have another friend that had a previous version of them, that the gameport became obsolete before the stick/throttle wore out. People slam dashpots over hall effect sensors, but the industrial joystick innards that CH Products put in their game peripherals last longer than the connection standards on PC's and make that point moot when comparing CH Products. There are crappy dashpot joysticks out there but that critism doesn't apply to CH Products in my opinion. He bought a new one just to have USB.

The software for programing them, is a bit old, and not entirely intuitive. However, there is a large following in DCS forums and CH Products forums to find pre-made profiles, so it's not too hard to get setup quickly and start flying with community profiles in hand.

I've been using mine in A-10C and Flaming Cliffs without issues.

One more point of opinion: Prior to getting my CH Products suite, I had a Saitek X45 as my first stick. It wasn't a bad stick initially, but became something I couldn't stand using. The quality of that stick forced me to consider other brands, and I landed on CH Products. The first thing I noticed between the two was that the CH Products doesn't require a lot of force to move. Someone up there talked about replacing the springs with really stiff ones. My X45 was stiff, and I felt I was always fighting the springs. When I changed over the CH Products, the springs are light, and allow for real fine and precise control: I actually felt like I was controlling something instead of fighting the stick for control. But again, that's a matter of preference.

Good luck!

[Hadji]

I use my Warthog for all modules in DCS and it works like a charm with all of them. It works just fine in Arma 2 and 3. It also works great in Elite Dangerous. Best piece of kit I've ever bought!

[Stone_313]

Originally posted by Ranko:

Thank you, StoneCold313. Both sites are bookmarked. I'll look into them tomorrow or Sunday, as I was about to get into bed before midnight for a change (which is probably 20 minutes away after typing this message :P). Many thanks for the links :D

As for the software, it seems to be called T.A.R.G.E.T., it looks fairly easy (and not even that bad) but of course that doesn't say anything about functionality. I think, if the choice becomes the Warthog, I'll give the software the benifit of the doubt and at least give it a chance to prove itself (everyone/-thing deserves a chance for that XD).

Thanks again, you've given really good help (I wish I could give a medal for that, but I can't really :( my pigeon wouldn't know where to fly XD)

Yeah, it's called T.A.R.G.E.T. they also have a script editor to use with it. But to me the program seems too much of an hassle. Especially when i can bind all the buttons etc from the in game settings.

Also there is no need for medals. Just kill a tank or a jet for me in game when you do make up your mind.