Dodging Missiles?

[Spc Johnson]

This is mostly a question of other peoples strategy\tactics in evading missiles of any type.
I've been playing this sim for about a year now and only been able to dodge missiles 1 out of 50 to 70 tries, I setup a senario where its 1 on 1 between me and a fighter or SAM with each missile type [single missile types for each senario], and over a weeks time I have only dodged a missile 2 times [IR missile and air to air] and it was only because I closed the throttle and dropped 20 or so flares .
Because of my inability to dodge missiles at all I stick to the KA-50 [lots of success with it], I would like to get better at using fighters with the new jets coming out but if I'm just fodder for any AI or player it will get frustrating and close me off from the game.

[Chameleon_Silk]

whoa stop the truck.

if you spending time looking for a missile rather then doing what you need to do your doing it wrong... you guys are basically telling dude to fly straight and look around..... and no ones saying use RWR to judge distance, you use the RWR to know when you must begin defending the missile (as in you defend right away, what kinda moron is gonna start looking around while flying straight at a threat) you shouldn't wait to begin defeating the missile your looking for some tom cruise if your doing that.

my point is you use your SA, based on your sensors and what you see from the combination of everything at your disposal, in a perfect world you would look at the missile and deviate course only slightly to defeat a long range shot..... this is not a perfect world and none of us are perfect at flying.... flying is about making less mistakes then your opponents not being perfect is the nature of the game.

bottom line, if you are fired on and you have to see where the missile is comming from you have failed to properly assess the threats or you are purposely entering a threat envelope expecting a response or its a short range SAM or heatseeker which are different story from a SARH or ARH...... no where am I saying use the RWR to measure the distance to a threat, anybody in the know would scoff at the thought of using RWR to measure actual distance.... having said that there are some tricks but by no means should that be the end all, if anything the RWR will tell you where abouts to be looking for the missile instead of having to look 360 degrees zoomed in for 5 minute (by the way your now a fireball)

its more important to see a heat seeker since anything short of a hard turn at 9G popping flares will not save your ass, this differs consideribly from a radar guided missile at 20km..... infact how the hell are you even seeing a missile at 20km, I mean stop and think..... the only way is either a trail which will be hard to see if its a head on shot..... or via sensors....... and its important both to see the missile stop tracking when its a heatseeker so you can stop popping flares, however the feeling of when a radar guided missile is defeated is more or less from experience dealing with different range shots, unsure of how far they fired from well then your SA again has failed.


long range radar missile:
1. missile launch detected and registered in my brain
2. use RWR to determine roughly 90 degrees from the launch
3. turn 90 degrees from emitter
4. begin looking for missile trail
5. based on your knowledge of how far the shot was, be ready to turn back on with your own shot (this is the experience part, basically you want the missile to be low energy for when you turn back in)
6. begin notching again while maintaining a lock if possible.

short range radar missile:
1. missile launch, don't think just split-S (time is of essence)
2. drag missile at maximum thrust
3. look for some hill to block LOS
4. run away to wingmen or friendly SAM since you are completley defensive (but better then dead)

rear aspect heatseeker:
1. look at opponent at rear quarter
2. see missile come off rail
3. pop flares with hard turn circle back into the opponent
4. continue step 1

any radar SAM in DCS:
1. skirt threat envelope at high speed
2. on launch turn 90 degrees and put the SAM on the beam
3. dive and gain more speed for safety sake

at this point you can either turn back away completley or rinse repeat till SAM is out of missiles.

any manpad that you can see:

1. go to 4500 meters
2. drop a dumb bomb nearby and the shockwave will kill the men.


thats basically what I'd be doing.

[jester]

Originally posted by twitch.tv/land_force:

<snip>

You're arguing with the most extreme of examples. You have to see the missile at some point to figure out where it is in relation to your aircraft. You can't defend against what you can't see. That applies to surface to air missiles, IR missiles, radar guided missiles etc. You don't have to see it the second it drops off the rail.

But you do need to see it before it hits you because you still have to maneuver. If you don't see the missile, and just make a guess on when to turn into the missile, chances are you're going to die.

Nobody has perfect situational awareness. I don't understand why you wouldn't use all of the tools available to help pick up the slack.

tl;dr BVR engagements are for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ pilots who can't fight anyway.

EDIT: okay so you disagree with having to spot the missile, but still say you should look for it anyway? What the ♥♥♥♥ are we even arguing about?

[Chameleon_Silk]

im saying you don't need to see the missile to defeat it, I will not argue that its not GOOD to see the missile as obviously its great to see the missile and seeing what its doing can be a huge boon and can buy you more time by not needlessly beaming a missile gone ballistic... just simply saying your sensors see it far faster then your eyeballs can.

besides how you see a missile without a motor burning at range is very impressive! a lot of what your saying applies more to SAM launches and heatseekers (in my opinion) as your sensors see the launch and range if radar is on when its a radar threat.

its much easier to see a trail comming out of the ground straight up then it is a white dot that appears to not be moving toward aircraft (meanwhile your sensors have already told you its there, well in most cases) any kinda launch that gives you a very late warning (think flood mode is like this) it would be of paramount importance to see when he has fired because it will give you a much more accurate defensive move to know that he had already fired when your sensors haven't warned you (besides being locked up)

I'm not arguing, and I'm not disagreeing just simply puttin my 2 cents in.

I know I know what I'm doing because I'm a greasy lil pilot that dodges many missiles when I play, just trying to share the tips and strategys that help me.

[Spc Johnson]

I've noticed that dropping chaff no matter how much has no effect on enemy missiles.
I still "beam" the missile even climb a bit to loose more of its energy, diving into the hills never worked for me yet, if anything i die faster.

I got another question. If a F-15 fires an AMRAMM on me with TWS mode will the RWR give me a missile launch when the missile comes off the rails or when the AMRAAM goes "pitbull"?

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by Frieza26:

I've noticed that dropping chaff no matter how much has no effect on enemy missiles.
I still "beam" the missile even climb a bit to loose more of its energy, diving into the hills never worked for me yet, if anything i die faster.

I got another question. If a F-15 fires an AMRAMM on me with TWS mode will the RWR give me a missile launch when the missile comes off the rails or when the AMRAAM goes "pitbull"?

not 100pct its either this or flood mode (might be TWS now that you mention it) thats when spotting it is super important because the warning you would get would be pretty much to late. so in this instance seeing the shot at range is very important.

chaff can work but I've only really seen it work when its an A-10C with a tight turn comming back around with the chaff he released somewhere in front of his aircraft, the radar missile gets confused as to wether the A-10 is the chaff or if its the thing behind the chaff cloud... I would not recommend relying on such a tactic though, better to just bug out.... although practice makes perfect so who knows! may also be very dependant on the actual missile being fired, some may not bite on chaff at all... however if chaff is in the game and its also used in real life there must be a very real merit to having it on board.

diving into the hills is last resort, you must also consider how high the missile was launched from if it can look down over the hilltops and still see you then the hills will do nothing, however if its trajectory is a lot more flat and at lower altitude then the missile will not see you and lose lock.... in real life AMRAAMS can loft up and then come down most likley so that it has more energy in its terminal phase but in relation to the game it would also be bad news for anyone trying to go nap of the earth.

[Kaiju4Hire]

Here is an actual way to evade any missle. well 2 ways. First is to get the missle 90 degrees of you dropping chaff and flares as it closes in, in the final moments, if the missle is still tracking, dump chaff/ flares and jink either by pulling up or by turning into the missle's flight path as hard as possible. ( due to the final approach of missles, they no longer have any fuel to make a sudden adjustment, nor can they change speed ) 2nd is to get the missle at your 3/9 O' Clock wait untill it is in final range and then perform a split S maneuver, but right after you roll inverted. dump chaff and flares then pull the towards the ground to complete the maneuver. ( make sure you have enough altitude! ) there is a 3rd way, but it only works for radar guided and this sim has yet to feature terrain masking. What you do is if you get locked by any radar guided missle ( sam, ship, aircraft ) you dive for the deck and the missle should either lose track from you hitting below 500 FT. or due to how radar tracks, the missle should hit the ground before you do. ( Radar guided leads the target, simply, it's trying to hit your nose where your radar is located )

[jester]

Originally posted by twitch.tv/land_force:

besides how you see a missile without a motor burning at range is very impressive!

You don't see it at range. I don't know why you thought that's what I meant. You see it as it closes in on your aircraft. That's when you can start breaking into it. It's a timing.

This whole thread is now cancer. I'm going back to being a fighter pilot in the only plane that matters, the Messerschmitt BF-109.

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by jester:

You don't see it at range. I don't know why you thought that's what I meant. You see it as it closes in on your aircraft. That's when you can start breaking into it. It's a timing.

so you want to see it when its close so you know if your going to die or if you have been successful at defeating it, I get that... and I have said that in no way is seeing it a bad thing, just that it is not the most important peice of the puzzle... I would much rather know at what range it was launched so I can split-S or beam the missile.

and maybe you should go back to your BF-109, perhaps thats for the better instead of constantly raining negativity on the discussion board :/ you declare the thread cancer when its you that is continually seeking conflict.... I deal with a lot of dolts on here and have to watch what I say to keep the privelege of being here and I have had conversation with you before and know that you thrive on arguing opinions on here often scoffing in chat with me about how retarded people are....not everyones a hat... some people seek real answers and when I can go demonstrate the very technique im talking about time and time again and have it work... well then the proofs in the pudding.

you have exclaimed numerous times with an elitist attitude that BVR is for noobs and that real men fly in WW2 planes, well then why are you here in the first place? If your goal was to come off as someone knowledgeable perhaps you should maybe step out of the WW2 flight instructor mantra you have going and pipe down when some people talk, might learn something.

[ndv]

Does ECM do anything? If so, when to use it?

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by unitteee:

Does ECM do anything? If so, when to use it?

ECM is used to deny first launch, once within burn through distance it becomes more of a liability then anything, making tons of noise up close not so good.

also ECM is not stealth, ECM is like making noise.... anyone can see the noise (well at greater distances) however they can only know that the noise is that aproximate direction and will be unable to get the bogeys dope till burn through occurs.

[Chameleon_Silk]

I do not want this thread to be closed as it does contain effective strategys for people to read about, many people who are new to combat sims often don't know about the basics, Jinking and missile avoidance etc, the learning curves makes it so that getting shot at comes after first learning how to fly the thing in the first place.

[Spc Johnson]

Even with the banter in this thread, I'm learning a great deal. I know my close range evasion has improved a great deal, but my biggest problem is now just seeing the missile leading me rather than looking at plane that launched it, I should be looking 20-30 degrees in advance of the aircraft searching for the missile instead.

[Hadji]

Originally posted by jester:

You're arguing with the most extreme of examples. You have to see the missile at some point to figure out where it is in relation to your aircraft. You can't defend against what you can't see. That applies to surface to air missiles, IR missiles, radar guided missiles etc.

How is your tactics against incoming missiles working out for you when flying at night? I agree, it's easier to evade something you see but it's most certainly not a requirement.

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by Frieza26:

Even with the banter in this thread, I'm learning a great deal. I know my close range evasion has improved a great deal, but my biggest problem is now just seeing the missile leading me rather than looking at plane that launched it, I should be looking 20-30 degrees in advance of the aircraft searching for the missile instead.

yes there is a lot of good stuff here and not just from my posts but from others as well :)

[jester]

Originally posted by El Hadji:

Originally posted by jester:

You're arguing with the most extreme of examples. You have to see the missile at some point to figure out where it is in relation to your aircraft. You can't defend against what you can't see. That applies to surface to air missiles, IR missiles, radar guided missiles etc.

How is your tactics against incoming missiles working out for you when flying at night? I agree, it's easier to evade something you see but it's most certainly not a requirement.

Pretty good. My strategy though is primarily to avoid getting shot at in the first place. I prefer the sneak up and gun them down method. It's the easiest thing in the world because everyone in jets spends too much time looking at their radar to what's in front of them, and they aren't looking around with their eyeballs or using their brain.