Dodging Missiles?

[Spc Johnson]

This is mostly a question of other peoples strategy\tactics in evading missiles of any type.
I've been playing this sim for about a year now and only been able to dodge missiles 1 out of 50 to 70 tries, I setup a senario where its 1 on 1 between me and a fighter or SAM with each missile type [single missile types for each senario], and over a weeks time I have only dodged a missile 2 times [IR missile and air to air] and it was only because I closed the throttle and dropped 20 or so flares .
Because of my inability to dodge missiles at all I stick to the KA-50 [lots of success with it], I would like to get better at using fighters with the new jets coming out but if I'm just fodder for any AI or player it will get frustrating and close me off from the game.

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by Frieza26:

Originally posted by twitch.tv/land_force:

if you think beaming the missile has never worked you need a ton more practice and you are missing some fundamental parts of what your supposed to be doing to defeat a missile.

of course it works, its in the geometry.

I never said I was any good at this sim [not game], I'd say I suck at it really but improvment warrents time\practice\patience.
But I have a hyothetical solution. During one of my last sessions trying dodging again I tried beaming [9 o'clock] the missile [radar sams] then when fired on, I turned AWAY from the missile and dropped chaff and then turned back to 3 o'clock. It did work a few times but not good enough to consider a good tactic.

it is the best tactic and basically what you will always do once a launch has been detected (short of a split-S) there are many reasons why you do this tactic.

for starters: turning 90 degrees makes it so missile has to fly further out to go after you on a lead pursuit course, the higher the speed the further the missile has to fly in front of you further enlongating its intercept point, furthermore turning only 90 degrees bleeds less speed and stops the closure rate the quickest (besides split-S)

also keep in mind there is a zone of no escape for a missile, once you enter this region all shots are extremley high PK and if thats the case you have failed to keep them at a distance with your own missiles.

beaming works best when you have some space between you and the missile, the longer the missile has to fly the less energy it will have when it critically needs it, once the motor has stopped burning it has a very finite amount of energy it can use to manueaver, so the idea is that you stretch the missile out and then nose back on once it has lost its ability to keep following you with course corrections, it will then be unable to get that lead pursuit it needs and the missile is defeated.

pay very close attention to the ranges, a RMAX shot can be defeated pretty easily by just beaming for 10-15 seconds and nosing back on, where a very close in shot will just kill you.

so use your situational awareness to make the call, if its close be thinking split-S and NOE at full burner, and hope your wingman can clear you 6 of the pursuit.

if I came across as ignorant, it was not intended. simply want to stress that THIS is the way you dodge missiles and its a pretty constant thing, if the missile is an old missile or like a long range missile from a MiG-25 you can defeat them very easily at range where the newer stuff like amraams and sparrows tend to track a lot longer and are harder to dodge (most of this actually comes from the distance they are firing versus the actual capability of the missile)

hope this helps... would suggest setting up an ME miz with labels on and tacview have the AI fire some shots and examine the tracks, try at different ranges and then you may come back a bit enlightened.

cheers.

[snakedoctor]

dodging missiles? When you're ready you wont have to.

[jester]

Spent some time with OP going over missile evasion. We figured out what the problem is :)

[Regen7]

In my experience all you can really do is evasive maneuveurs, countermeasures and hope you'll be lucky.

IR missles are pretty hard to dodge because missle launch isn't detected by RWR, especially at short range launch. AMRAAM's are easier to dodge if they are launched too early by the enemy. Basically the closer the launch is the less likely you'll be able to dodge it.

Although this IRL pilot managed to dodge 6 SAM missles in 1991 in an f16. He gets engaged at 3:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA

[noobsbane]

And it's important to remember with that video that while Stroke 3 dodged six SA-2's, two of his wingmen were not so lucky.

[Spc Johnson]

Originally posted by jester:

Spent some time with OP going over missile evasion. We figured out what the problem is :)

hehe, lack of skill and not being able to see the launch is a big part of it.

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by Regen752:

In my experience all you can really do is evasive maneuveurs, countermeasures and hope you'll be lucky.

IR missles are pretty hard to dodge because missle launch isn't detected by RWR, especially at short range launch. AMRAAM's are easier to dodge if they are launched too early by the enemy. Basically the closer the launch is the less likely you'll be able to dodge it.

Although this IRL pilot managed to dodge 6 SAM missles in 1991 in an f16. He gets engaged at 3:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA

its not chance (it is if your unsure of what your doing and have no situational awareness at that time) the technique of putting a missile on the beam is real life tactics and the reason it works is in the geometry... im sure in real life you wouldn't just shrug and turn and call it a day, being fired on is a stressful situation in a sim let alone in real life.

although I do agree with your 2nd point, as I said before once a missile is in the no escape zone then it becomes purely chance if it were to miss as there is no actual move that would outperform a missile if it is tracking correctly... hence why its called the no escape zone... note also that it is in this midrange deathzone that an amraam is absolutley devastating as there is nothing but a hill that could save you or you would have to hope that you could get off boresight of the seeker and have it unable to come off the rail at a sufficient angle to intercept, this is why heat seekers are king up close, no warning of course and they are capable of higher off boresight shots not to mention the fact they have tons of energy and are swifter looking to kill something directly off the pylon.

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by noobsbane:

And it's important to remember with that video that while Stroke 3 dodged six SA-2's, two of his wingmen were not so lucky.

I wonder how that mission got so messed up, what were they tasked to do and where was the SEAD?

[noobsbane]

Originally posted by twitch.tv/land_force:

Originally posted by noobsbane:

And it's important to remember with that video that while Stroke 3 dodged six SA-2's, two of his wingmen were not so lucky.

I wonder how that mission got so messed up, what were they tasked to do and where was the SEAD?

Apparently the SEAD craft had to bug out on bingo fuel just as the final few strike fighters were inbound. It was these last few flights that were engaged by now-guided SAMs (previously they were all being fired ballistically due to the SEAD presence).

Ultimately I guess you could put it down to bad SEAD organisation. You'd think the USAF would have organised more than 6 Wild Weasels for a strike package containing over 70 aircraft over a target area covered by hundreds of SAMs. The package was lucky to come away with only two losses.

Great reading on the largest airstrike of the Gulf War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_Q_Strike

[jester]

Originally posted by Frieza26:

Originally posted by jester:

Spent some time with OP going over missile evasion. We figured out what the problem is :)

hehe, lack of skill and not being able to see the launch is a big part of it.

Spotting the missile is half the process. Once you can see missiles, everything will make more sense. Keep using tacview, practice practice practice.

Or buy a WWII airplane and learn to actually fight. Not this BVR "hurr durr 20 miles FOX!" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ strategy.

Real men shoot aircraft down with 12.7mm nose MGs.

[Chameleon_Silk]

I really think seeing the missile applies more to heat seekers, you can usually see the radar missile via RWR and launch warning and use your noodle to try and figure out what aircraft would have launched.... besides the 2 most important factors, the range of the launch and the angle from your nose can be deduced from the RWR and radar combined.

seeing can mean multiple things, with the eye or with sensors -- for all intents and purposes you don't have to read the writing on the side of the missile to be able to see it. If anybody feels blind at any point its more of an issue of situational awareness or inability to operate the radar effectively.

for shorter range SAMs and air to air missiles then yes seeing it with eyeball is important as you will need to know when it either bites on a flare or just isn't going to make the intercept, I've probably posted this a million times but it shows a percise moment where the beaming was just sufficient to escape the missile and is a great educational tool for those who are doubting its a sure fire thing when done right...... this was very close to being not good enough, you should always try for a less close escape, the labels were turned on after when watching the track as I wanted to see how the OSA had missed.... a great example because its a fairly close SAM shot on my plane with not much altitude to give, the OSA has aprox range of 12km and here I am within 6km... notice that I don't bleed my speed when I turn away and then make sure to gain a little more speed to help stretch it out, 20 kmh difference would have been me as a fireball.... 925kmh at sea level in a Su-25T..... I was cruising!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBfJS3Vm6d0

The art of dogfighting in prop planes while more "pure" shouldn't take anything away from missile avoidance and BVR jousting..... I see a lot of people struggle with missile avoidance even if they can dogfight like a champ... 2 very different kinds of furballs.

[Chameleon_Silk]

Originally posted by noobsbane:

Originally posted by twitch.tv/land_force:

I wonder how that mission got so messed up, what were they tasked to do and where was the SEAD?

Apparently the SEAD craft had to bug out on bingo fuel just as the final few strike fighters were inbound. It was these last few flights that were engaged by now-guided SAMs (previously they were all being fired ballistically due to the SEAD presence).

Ultimately I guess you could put it down to bad SEAD organisation. You'd think the USAF would have organised more than 6 Wild Weasels for a strike package containing over 70 aircraft over a target area covered by hundreds of SAMs. The package was lucky to come away with only two losses.

Great reading on the largest airstrike of the Gulf War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_Q_Strike

thanks for posting this, will check it out when I get a moment.

[Spc Johnson]

Spotting the missile is half the process. Once you can see missiles, everything will make more sense. Keep using tacview, practice practice practice.

Or buy a WWII airplane and learn to actually fight. Not this BVR "hurr durr 20 miles FOX!" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ strategy.

Real men shoot aircraft down with 12.7mm nose MGs. [/quote]

I'm seriously considering buying some of the prop-planes, because I've had no luck for a few days now in dodging any radar guided missiles [tags on, and in controlled enviroments]. The exception being IR missiles, I've had a decent record evading those.

So later on I may be dedicating my time to helo's and WWII aircraft.

[jester]

Originally posted by twitch.tv/land_force:

I really think seeing the missile applies more to heat seekers, you can usually see the radar missile via RWR and launch warning and use your noodle to try and figure out what aircraft would have launched....

If you are trying to evade a missile by using just your RWR, you're going to have a bad time. Your timing for maneuvering will be poor because you don't know how far it is in relation to your aircraft, and you'll have no idea what it's coming from if you are in Russian aircraft. At best, you'll know that "a missile" was fired at you from "6 o'clock" and it's within "threat range". That's a lot of variables that can be eliminated by simply turning your head and looking.

You should always being using your eyeballs to spot a missile. There is no reason whatsoever to not look for the missile.

[Spc Johnson]

You should always being using your eyeballs to spot a missile. There is no reason whatsoever to not look for the missile. [/quote]

Oh believe me I'm searching for the missile even at max zoom, but I'm just not able to see it and definatly not after the missile is out of fuel. I spent 5 hours and 46 recorded [tacview] events yesterday in a one on one vs a Su-27 with R-27's and R-60's and I've only been able to dodge the IR missiles and about a 1 in 22 chance of getting past the first missile [radar] but after that I can usually evade every missile after that.