Why aren't there any good joysticks anymore on the market these days like they used to be ?

[Flightcontrol]

All,

With this article i would like to express a dissatisfaction regarding the todays available joysticks on the market.

Since my youth I am a flight simulation enthousiast. Now being 46, i find someting really disturbing: there simply aren't any good joysticks anymore on the market, or, they are too expensive while still missing key functions...

The most important factor of a good joystick is:
- Be precise in its movements and does not jitter
- Allow to move the handle without requiring a lot of force from the wrist or arm.
- Have no gradations of force to be applied to a joystick.
For example, if you need to apply more force to move the joystick out of the center,
it is very disturbing.
- Have all the required buttons (see below) and hats.
- Have a rudder function.
- Simple to setup (plug and play). Not everyone has a dedicated flight lab...

Look at my comments below, there is today simply not even one joystick on the market that has these functions ...

1. Very important: A working force feedback function. This is very important for flying helicopters. When you trim the helicopter rotors, the stick should take the position of the last trimmed position. Also, for other airplanes, the force feedback can provide additional realism to the game in terms of shaking and resistance... And, very important, the joystick force feedback mechanism should be quiet. The best force feedback joystick made every was the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 FF joystick. The Logitech G940 is the worst force feedback joystick. One has to hide a small detector to make the force feedback work as it should, and the motor of the force feedback is very noisy!

2. Very important: Two types of fire buttons that you can press with your pointing finger. One to fire guns, and one for other ammunition.

3. Very important: Slew hats on the top of the joystick, that can be used to slew pointers, aming crosses, cameras etc. Most joysticks today only have binary slew hats, that can slew up, down, left, right and sometimes also diagonal (but not always). A good joystick should have analogue slew hats, which allow to slew pointers to all directions, but also, to define the speed of the slew determined by the amount of slew you apply on the hat. If the slew is more to the center, then the speed should be slow, if the slew is more to the border, the slew should be fast...

7. Very important: Rudder function by rotating the stick left or right. The Logitech or the Thrustmaster T-1600M have this function. However, more expense joysticks like the Saitek X55 or the Thrustmaster Hotas lack this function. You need special pedals for that, which is hard to setup and remove, and is an additional cost.

4. Important: Various buttons on the top of the joystick, typically to fire rockets, targetting, selecting and changing targets, etc... Most joysticks have this functionality.

5. Important: An analogue slider to apply trust to engines. I find only some joysticks to have this functionality.

6. Switches or buttons that can be applied to certain plane functions. I find some joysticks to have this feature very much developed. Like to hotas or the Saitek X55... Some joysticks have merely buttons, like the Thrustmaster T-1600M or the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

7. Lights: Useful to have lights indicating if certain switches are on or off...


Well ... If somebody on the forum could highlight me a model that have these options, I think it would help a lot of people ... Most joysticks have lots of features described above, but not all inclusive. I find Logitech one of the most dissapointing companies today when it comes to joystick production. For some reason they are releasing at least 3 to 4 different mouse and controller types a year, but when it comes to joysticks, they have the same model available for the last 5 years ... Find below a list of available joysticks. I've indicated with a * the ones that i have personally used during my virtual flight career...

Logitech:
http://gaming.logitech.com/nl-be/product/extreme-3d-pro-joystick (*)
http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/flight-system-g940 (* discontinued)

Thrustmaster:
http://www.thrustmaster.com/products/t16000m (*)
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-4
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/hotas-warthog
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-x
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-stick-x

Saitek:
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x55.html (*)
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52pro.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/fly5.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/v1.html

Microsoft (does not produce joysticks anymore...):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder

kind regards,
Sven

[oldwrld]

Simple, the market is too small for joysticks to be viable products for a niche industry aka flight sims. Also with the many many variety of planes out there it would be impossible to replicate a decent "One size fits all" joystick.

Example the AC10 has over 250 different switchs and over 20 interal sub systems with control via said switchs. Only one joystick tried to replicate it (looks like the AC 10 HOTAS) and it is still a far-cry from the amount needed to properly use it.

Take my KA-50 as a great example i make use of the X52 and it barely has enough buttons and toggle switches just for that helicopter. The AC-10 i require another hat-switch as i do not have enough for all of em.

the reason joypads are so big (madcatz, sony, microsoft, logitech, rock-candy) these sell because fighting games, driving, adventure, fps (for those who use controllers)

[liq3]

Originally posted by I am a Radeon HD 7770:

The AC-10 i require another hat-switch as i do not have enough for all of em.

You can setup buttons besides the pinky switch to be a shift command. I have the clutch setup to do that. So clutch + hat 2 = autopilot, clutch + hat 1 = MIC, etc.

[oldwrld]

Originally posted by liq3:

Originally posted by I am a Radeon HD 7770:

The AC-10 i require another hat-switch as i do not have enough for all of em.

You can setup buttons besides the pinky switch to be a shift command. I have the clutch setup to do that. So clutch + hat 2 = autopilot, clutch + hat 1 = MIC, etc.

That could work. Its the damn chinese hat-switch its needed for just about everything urgh (damn American companies over complicating their aircraft). Its the DMS and TMS switch they are easy to bind, its when you need the damned China and the pinky together does life become a pain.

the russian KA-50 is a dream, to basically do what the AC-10 should be able to do is simple in the KA-50. See target line up with target, turn on automatic ground tracking, automatic targeting, engage laser, uncage skhval and sight target lock target master arm on weapon select place crosshair on target and fire.

for the AC-10 without the perfect controls it becomes impossible to select the right screen to the TGP and ensure it stays SOI all the while preprogramming (such a dumb design feature) of the maverick missles while trying to navigate two switches to latch the target. Finally presuming you've not screwed up the program you can then activate the laser pod and finally launch the maverick.

American Aircraft are just way to complicated and im not sure why.

[Hadji]

I have to disagree... There are good sticks on the market. Yes, FFB is nice when it works but absolutely not a necessity in my opinion. I use the TM HOTAS Warthog and throttle combo which meets all your requirements except FFB and twist rudder. I actually prefer NOT having twist rudder and instead use proper pedals since the level of control is superior compared to using just the stick - especially when flying WW2 birds and helos in DCS. I went for the MFG Crosswind rudder pedals and they match the Warthog perfectly.

The Warthog is great since you can customize it with extenders and custom made grips etc to make it act and feel like you want. When I was searching for a stick the most important factors were sensor quality and overall build quality and back then only one met these requirements - The Warthog. If I was to look for a stick today I would also consider the VKB Black Mamba: https://flightsimcontrols.com/store/joysticks/vkb-fat-black-mamba-for-non-eu/

In my opinion both Saitek and Logitech are good entry level sticks for beginners but I really don't think they are good enough in the long run. At least the ones I have owned over the years wasn't.

Flight sim gear is one of those things were you get what you pay for in terms of quality. As mentioned above the market is small so the producers really need to charge a decent amount of money to get some revenue. I don't find that to be a problem really.

[wedge]

I'm more than happy with my simple Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. Can't recommend this joystick enough.

[kazereal]

Having decent pedals makes things much easier. Especially when flying with helicopters the twist-function is a horrible pain, not advantage.

Also toe-brakes of pedals are useful when aircraft needs differential braking (WW2 warbirds, for example, need it while taxiing).

I seriously urge you to reconsider what you are advising to newcomers, people accustomed to flightsims have already formed their own opinions..

[jester]

I actually agree with a lot of what OP said except that a good joystick has a twisty rudder.

That's probably the worst, cheap imitation of rudder pedals I can think of. Why not just move the mouse left and right for rudder at that point?

[wedge]

Originally posted by jester:

Why not just move the mouse left and right for rudder at that point?

Well, it's better to read this than to be blind.

[JDarksword]

Lemme just say something what in the heck is an "AC-10" it's A-10C people

[Dura_Ace]

All Saitek sticks are ♥♥♥♥. They have a spring under teh stick forcing pressure upwards and that is hard on your wrist after a while. The round bezel that sits under the spring is not smooth at all and will result in "jumps" or "skips" to your input.

Not a precise stick (any of theirs) at all and not as smooth as my last stick which was a MS Precision Pro from mid 90's. That was THE stick to have back in the day. Very smooth and hardly any input needed with just the right amount of resistence not to make it sloppy.

Saitek is ♥♥♥♥ and they all have that spring loaded resistence under the stick. Even their top of the line range. If they figured out a way how to make the bezel underneath smoother and less prone to stuttering upon input then they have a decent product.

[kazereal]

Since people keep asking for hardware recommendations might as well continue list here.

I've seen good feedback on Komodo Simulations controls on forums:
http://www.komodosimulations.co.uk

It is also one place to consider depending on your budget.

For rudder pedals the MFG Crosswind and Slaw Device are valued among the highest these days.
http://mfg.simundza.com/products

[Dura_Ace]

Originally posted by kazereal:

Since people keep asking for hardware recommendations might as well continue list here.

I've seen good feedback on Komodo Simulations controls on forums:
http://www.komodosimulations.co.uk

It is also one place to consider depending on your budget.

For rudder pedals the MFG Crosswind and Slaw Device are valued among the highest these days.
http://mfg.simundza.com/products

Cyclic controls for choppers only. Shame. Looks good though

[Spectrum Legacy]

I'm using the VKB Cobra M5 (modified Defender Cobra M5 2nd gen) for about 2 years straight. It is pretty much T16000M from Mother Russia with much better and customizable controller (2nd gen of Cobra only), better gymball design (although stock version is still plastic, however there are ~200€ sticks with plastic gymballs & cheap pots offered on the market without a shame anyway), precise digital magnetic sensors on X&Y (again 2nd gen only) as compared to analogue mag-rez sensors, or even the old potentiometers found everywhere. Overall great piece for 40-50€, however it requires some customising or modding to make it shine and to fit your needs. I find it a good allrounder, despite some flaws (gymball can be noisy on some pieces despite they are well greased; springs on main axis are prone to break so you have to look for replacement springs - mine lasted about ~1200 flight hours over those 2 years before the first spring snapped). Also the standard potentiometer rudder was not something to write home about as it had input spikes - but you can swap it for a magnetic sensor, or some heavy duty/quality pot and flash/reconfigure the controller.

Twist rudder or not, that is kinda matter of taste and muscle memory. If you want to fly helos with twist grip, try to remove the autocentering spring from it, while looking for a way to create some small but even/consistent friction on the twist. That should make it much easier on the hand.

Good Force-feedback is something I do miss these days though. MSSidewinder2 was the gold standard in that regard, with surprisingly good build quality - well maintained it could last a decade. Maybe that's the reason why they are not making them like this anymore.