How do I do the SU-25 Anti-Radar training?

[Hazen]

I'm pretty new with this sim.

I've tried flying at high altitude for this training mission, I shoot two KH-58 'Kilters' at the radars at max range when I get a lock.

I bank away and try to stay out of the SAM missile range, but eventually, they get a lock again and I get shot down.

How do you actually complete this mission by killing both radars for the SAMs?

I'm also trying to do S-turns using Chaff to try to evade the missiles but they always get me.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[startrekmike]

One thing that can't be overstated. You are going to need to manage your expectations. The Su-25 is a slow, low-altitude attack aircraft and is the most tempting, most vulnerable target for pretty much every SAM system. Just because it can carry a anti-radiation missile does not mean that it should really be used as a full-on SEAD aircraft against long/medium range radar guided SAM systems. It might have a weapon that can go after the radar but if you can't survive long enough to make that weapon effective due to the limits of the plane, it isn't worth bothering.

It is kinda like the Harrier module. It comes with an absolutely awful anti-radiation version of the Sidewinder (called the Sidearm). At best, it might be useful against something like a Shilka, Fire can, or Dog Ear (mostly just gun guidance radars) but seeing the Sidearm and assuming that it allows the Harrier to go kill long/medium range SAM radars will just result in a smoking hole in the ground where a Harrier once was.

As I said at the beginning. Manage your expectations. the Su-25 (or the Su-25T for that matter) isn't a viable SEAD platform to put it mildly. It is best to just make your own training scenario in the editor where you can use its anti-radiation missile against more appropriate targets (short range stuff and gun radars).

[Hazen]

Originally posted by startrekmike:

One thing that can't be overstated. You are going to need to manage your expectations. The Su-25 is a slow, low-altitude attack aircraft and is the most tempting, most vulnerable target for pretty much every SAM system. Just because it can carry a anti-radiation missile does not mean that it should really be used as a full-on SEAD aircraft against long/medium range radar guided SAM systems. It might have a weapon that can go after the radar but if you can't survive long enough to make that weapon effective due to the limits of the plane, it isn't worth bothering.

It is kinda like the Harrier module. It comes with an absolutely awful anti-radiation version of the Sidewinder (called the Sidearm). At best, it might be useful against something like a Shilka, Fire can, or Dog Ear (mostly just gun guidance radars) but seeing the Sidearm and assuming that it allows the Harrier to go kill long/medium range SAM radars will just result in a smoking hole in the ground where a Harrier once was.

As I said at the beginning. Manage your expectations. the Su-25 (or the Su-25T for that matter) isn't a viable SEAD platform to put it mildly. It is best to just make your own training scenario in the editor where you can use its anti-radiation missile against more appropriate targets (short range stuff and gun radars).

Fair enough, but It's all I have. I have free DCS. You'd have thought, that the stock missions provided with the SU-25 that is the free aircraft you get for free DCS would be possible to do, otherwise, there's a problem.

It might be a skill issue (probably is, I only have 10 hours experience with this game) but it still should be possible to do, or else, it's a problem with the game itself.

[Maki Nishikino]

Originally posted by Hazen:

It might be a skill issue (probably is, I only have 10 hours experience with this game) but it still should be possible to do, or else, it's a problem with the game itself.

It's possible but it's just very difficult in that aircraft. Some air defenses will just eat you for breakfast. There are much better aircraft in DCS for SEAD.

[Hazen]

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'm trying but maybe it's just too difficult :) I'm hoping it is possible, just need to find that nugget of information what I'm doing wrong.

I think it could be target selection, but it's hard to select the right thing quickly, and at long range, all the target diamonds are pretty much at the same spot, so hard to differentiate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGnuMxFnc1k xD

[DaFLYINMONKEY]

Not sure how much it will help you, but I noticed in all your videos you have your flaps fully extended for the whole mission. This is limiting how fast you can fly, which can have an impact on how far your missile can go and how effectively you can "dodge" enemy missiles.
The faster you are when you launch your missile, the further it can fly since it has a higher initial speed, increasing the maximum range you can be away from the sam site. Also when you are doing those S turns to bleed energy off of the sam's missile, more speed will help there too.

It might just be a minor thing, and there are many better qualified people who could speak more in-depth on this, but basically speed is energy, and energy is a key resource to maintain in air combat.

Another thing is know the limitations of the airframe. In a SU-25, you wont be able to outmaneuver sams close in, so stay close to the maximum weapon range and duck out the moment you get locked. Make the sam waste missiles. You don't have to knock out the enemy on the very first run in. Fly smart, notch, dive. Same thing with low altitude attacks, but those are more dangerous since you have to be closer to the site, and if they launch on you it is harder to hide, since the missile will be mostly above you.

Best of luck! There are plenty of communities outside of the steam forums that are willing to help to, even do 1 on 1 training if you want to go that route.
Hope you enjoy the rest of your flight simming experience!

[Hazen]

Originally posted by DaFLYINMONKEY:

Not sure how much it will help you, but I noticed in all your videos you have your flaps fully extended for the whole mission. This is limiting how fast you can fly, which can have an impact on how far your missile can go and how effectively you can "dodge" enemy missiles.
The faster you are when you launch your missile, the further it can fly since it has a higher initial speed, increasing the maximum range you can be away from the sam site. Also when you are doing those S turns to bleed energy off of the sam's missile, more speed will help there too.

It might just be a minor thing, and there are many better qualified people who could speak more in-depth on this, but basically speed is energy, and energy is a key resource to maintain in air combat.

Another thing is know the limitations of the airframe. In a SU-25, you wont be able to outmaneuver sams close in, so stay close to the maximum weapon range and duck out the moment you get locked. Make the sam waste missiles. You don't have to knock out the enemy on the very first run in. Fly smart, notch, dive. Same thing with low altitude attacks, but those are more dangerous since you have to be closer to the site, and if they launch on you it is harder to hide, since the missile will be mostly above you.

Best of luck! There are plenty of communities outside of the steam forums that are willing to help to, even do 1 on 1 training if you want to go that route.
Hope you enjoy the rest of your flight simming experience!

Oh wow... I didn't even think of that, that's a very good point. I forgot to even use them! Thank you! And yes, fly higher and faster increases the missile range, I was aware of that, which is why I level out and fly quick as I can when I'm about to launch. Well spotted on the flaps, it's something I can try!

[startrekmike]

Originally posted by Hazen:

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'm trying but maybe it's just too difficult :) I'm hoping it is possible, just need to find that nugget of information what I'm doing wrong.

I think it could be target selection, but it's hard to select the right thing quickly, and at long range, all the target diamonds are pretty much at the same spot, so hard to differentiate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGnuMxFnc1k xD

Keep in mind that just because it is a training mission provided with the aircraft doesn't mean that it is going to actually be practical or (in some cases) plausible. The scenario they put you in isn't something that normally would be handled by that aircraft. It is something far more appropriate for a faster, higher flying aircraft that can more effectively locate and fire on the SAM radar while still being able to have a chance to get itself out of danger or meaningfully defend itself.

As I said before. It would make a lot more sense to put that particular weapon/aircraft combination into a more realistic, more practical context and just use it against short range air defense systems. Trying to take on serious SAM sites isn't going to be a good idea no matter how skilled one is.

[Gunfreak]

Originally posted by Hazen:

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I'm trying but maybe it's just too difficult :) I'm hoping it is possible, just need to find that nugget of information what I'm doing wrong.

I think it could be target selection, but it's hard to select the right thing quickly, and at long range, all the target diamonds are pretty much at the same spot, so hard to differentiate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGnuMxFnc1k xD

Guy over me is correct. These old training missions aren't always great (some are even broken from DCS being upgraded the last 10 years. But the missions haven't.

I'm no wild weasel expert, but you can see what kind of performance the F16 has.
My MFD show were the radar is.
I can dive down fast.
And this is against an SA6, an older less capable medium range SAM than SA11.

https://youtu.be/3VRd_FZqCdw?si=QknLDj-PzctoWkO7

[Hazen]

I have improved but still not successfully one the mission. I did not previously use flaps, which was pointed out by one helpful person, which reduced my useful weapon range. Still not perfect, and still can't work out how to use the shorter range missiles effectively. They tend to be highly inaccurate...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb5hMaEe1m8

[Troll Norris]

Guy definitely don't know how to use rudder pedals. Missiles are fire and forget, passively guided until the target's radar is emmiting.

[X_Deadmeat_X]

Originally posted by Hazen:

I have improved but still not successfully one the mission. I did not previously use flaps, which was pointed out by one helpful person, which reduced my useful weapon range. Still not perfect, and still can't work out how to use the shorter range missiles effectively. They tend to be highly inaccurate...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb5hMaEe1m8

Yes, the anti-radiation missiles are not 100% accurate, even the western ones. Even 60-70% hit rate is good going to be honest.

Your long range attacks were fine and you handled the evasions once locked with no problems. Note that at one point (10:50) you were talking about being locked yet if you listen to your Radar Warning Receiver they weren't even scanning you. Keep calm!

I couldn't see for sure on the first run but from your actions you appeared to be out of weapons. You need to be more aware of your load out. And obviously not having your cannons bound didn't help either. Fixing your bindings was fine but I'd suggest you needed to extend your egress and then re-attack. The 25 is very under-powered and you were getting constant stall warnings due to that tight loop you flew at low level resulting in the final stall and crash.

On the second run though you still had 2 missiles available but had again closed to cannon range. You wanted to have looped round at longer range to use those weapons up rather than the continual "straight in" attacks you fly. Don't become target fixated!

If however you are no longer getting radar signals to track with them, and so need to go to cannons as you have no other options, then you can't afford the drag they cause so should have dumped them.

Finally, in terms of cannon runs, you need to be attacking from a "pop up" manoeuvre (fly offset from the target by about 45 degrees left or right, pull up 1500-2000 feet - ideally more but the 25 will likely bleed too much speed - and roll out onto the correct attack alignment at the same time) to allow a downwards shot rather than those low looping horizontal runs you are doing. Pick one target, attack, egress/evade and reposition for another attack using the same pop up. In the 25 you'll need to make sure you allow a bit of extra time to pull out of those dives since you have no afterburner and with the pods you have loaded you'll still be heavy and sluggish.

Other than that I don't think you are far away from being able to complete this.

[Ho Chi]

ive watched your updated video ....

1. you massively overuse your rudder pedals to the point its making your flight extremely unstable.

2. youre always yanking around which wont help with trying to maintain what little speed the plane has (constantly hearing stall warnings)

3. find your target and look for approaches and ways to get out before you commit to the fight.

4. Know your enemy , download a SAM information kneepad from the DCS user files and look at the profiles of the SAM sites youre engaging.

5. When flying defensivly you want to be as low as possible , fast and preferably away from the missile/target ... using whatever you can as cover to break locks/line of sight.

6. if you are without cover and within MAR (minimum abort range) the try sticking the missile on youre 3-9 line and chaff like a demon.

[Hazen]

Thanks. I did seem to have 2 spare missiles but for some reason even with lock I couldn't release, and assumed I was out. I'll keep trying. I'm doing ok imo for only 10 hours in game. Thanks for helping

[Ho Chi]

Originally posted by Hazen:

Thanks. I did seem to have 2 spare missiles but for some reason even with lock I couldn't release, and assumed I was out. I'll keep trying. I'm doing ok imo for only 10 hours in game. Thanks for helping

10 hours .. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ aye youre doing well lol ... you'll get there , im still a rookie an i have 2000 hours in the F16 lol

[Ho Chi]

Originally posted by Hazen:

Thanks. I did seem to have 2 spare missiles but for some reason even with lock I couldn't release, and assumed I was out. I'll keep trying. I'm doing ok imo for only 10 hours in game. Thanks for helping

with regards to the rudder use i saw , i tend to only use my rudder for landing/takeoff and iff i need a little extra help rolling in some situations ... other than that i never use it.