The end of WMR is nigh. Your thoughts?

[Onno]

microsoft recently announced[learn.microsoft.com] the end of support for WMR in the near future. What are your thoughts on microsoft ending support of WMR in the near future?

[Onno]

My personal take:
Even though I have a G2 on the shelf, I cant say I care much. I have come to the conclusion that the hardware necessary to run a HMD like the G2 properly doesn't exist yet, so I had shelved it anyhow until I could afford a RTX6090 or its AMD or intel equivalent. (if that ever materialises) In 2022 I also switched to linux and I haven't looked into getting my G2 up and running. This should be possible through Monado[monado.dev], but I haven't tried that yet. Also, support for WMR devices seems to be spotty on Monado, so I'm waiting for that to mature as well.

[Compdiff]

What is your personal take Onno?

[Insônia]

"windows Mixed Reality" is near end but VR is still there. the drivers and software that enable those hardware to use openXR and other VR library wont go anywhere. they are still playable.

Once hardware stops production. there will be no part left to repair and replace.

I had 2016 oculus CV1, and deprecated 3 years later. and still use them 8 years later. and i spend 50$ brought a used full sets for parts replacement. i can keep use those until no part available to repair or the software and driver became completely obsolete( it would at least after Windows 11's end of life ). No worries..

[Onno]

Except that the software necessary will be stripped out of windows alltogether somewhere in 2025-2026. How can you set up your HMD once that is gone?

[Xupicor]

Originally posted by Onno:

My personal take:
Even though I have a G2 on the shelf, I cant say I care much. I have come to the conclusion that the hardware necessary to run a HMD like the G2 properly doesn't exist yet

And yet it worked fine for me with 3080. Sure, it wasn't constant 90 all the time, but with OpenXR it was plenty usable with basically all maxed out settings, save for MSAA and spurious things like DoF or Motion Blur.

If by "properly" you mean maxed out and still perfectly fluid and performant, then sure. Not in DCS anyway. Though 4090 got it close (But compared to Crystal it doesn't look as appealing). But why put yourself in front of such a high standard only to put the headset away? I grew my VR legs and fps drops up until 25-30fps don't bother me too much, especially that such a rough dip would happen only close to a static dense spot.

[Onno]

Originally posted by Xupicor:

Originally posted by Onno:

My personal take:
Even though I have a G2 on the shelf, I cant say I care much. I have come to the conclusion that the hardware necessary to run a HMD like the G2 properly doesn't exist yet

And yet it worked fine for me with 3080. Sure, it wasn't constant 90 all the time, but with OpenXR it was plenty usable with basically all maxed out settings, save for MSAA and spurious things like DoF or Motion Blur.

If by "properly" you mean maxed out and still perfectly fluid and performant, then sure. Not in DCS anyway. Though 4090 got it close (But compared to Crystal it doesn't look as appealing). But why put yourself in front of such a high standard only to put the headset away? I grew my VR legs and fps drops up until 25-30fps don't bother me too much, especially that such a rough dip would happen only close to a static dense spot.

That "high standard" you're talking about is just barely acceptable as is. I'm not at all willing to accept less than the level of quality offered by the high preset with extreme view range enabled. Tuning the settings down to get better FPS in VR just so you can use VR is pure copium in my opinion. Although I'll admit that the sense of presence of a VR HMD can't be matched by a 2D panel, my 43 inch screen with head tracking is delivering a far smoother experience and also still quite a bit of immersion. For me the overall experience is better on 2D right now. You can spot enemies much better. There are no weird screen distortions and you have a much crisper image overall. My solution was to wait until I at least could run something which can produce equal quality as my 2D screen at 90FPS. But it now seems that I can wait until the end of times with WMR headsets. I would have liked to see that day some time, but it is not to be. Hopefully Monado works out how to make WMR headsets work with all features enabled. Perhaps you might wonder why I still care a little bit about WMR then. It is because as long as the headset is supported in windows, there still is a small chance of getting better firmware etc. In that sense the end of WMR is a bit of a sad episode in the history of VR on the PC.

[Insônia]

Originally posted by Onno:

Except that the software necessary will be stripped out of windows alltogether somewhere in 2025-2026. How can you set up your HMD once that is gone?

that's cute. Once it on the internet, it stays on the internet.
it just removed in a future "release of Windows"

And did you know you could install UWP outside of the Windows Store? include those deprecated ones.

However, the driver may unable to move to a future "release of Windows" simply by the community itself. If Monado you mentioned drop support too. In worst case scenario, 0% support from all side. You will most likely have to stay at W11 23hx 24hx for a little longer. Not update to W12 or W11 25hx, or whatever Windows calls their future windows. Continue to use this Windows version until new games drop support. Just as many people are still using Windows 7/8, XP. Or you eventually tired of your G2 or W11 and decide to move on.

And there are many ways of preserve and download those software:
M$ way:
even M$ still preserve all the updates, drivers,M$ software since windows XP.
it's called WSUS ( Windows Server Update Services) .
This is just XP example[www.catalog.update.microsoft.com]
In case M$ pull the plug completely(XP) [archive.org]
thought WSUS DISM FOD install[learn.microsoft.com]

Or someone who care about digital preservation and achieving will share them though numerous way.
https://archive.org/details/microsoft.-mixed-reality.-portal-2000.21051.1282.0-neutral-8wekyb-3d-8bbwe
https://store.steampowered.com/app/719950/Windows_Mixed_Reality_for_SteamVR/
https://i.imgur.com/J3lY97B.png
https://i.imgur.com/QMf4Y2f.png

[Onno]

I guess you missed the fact that I decided to move on to linux in 2022?

I'm hoping that the development of support for WMR headsets in Monado doesn't get held up or cancelled because microsoft decided to end support for WMR.

[Insônia]

Originally posted by Insônia:

Originally posted by Onno:

I guess you missed the fact that I decided to move on to linux in 2022?

I'm hoping that the development of support for WMR headsets in Monado doesn't get held up or cancelled because microsoft decided to end support for WMR.

sorry i don't know too much about Linux support.

I was thinking the discussion was not platform fixated. an open discussion.

In that conversation, your next question is about how it can be setup after MS officially deprecation. When I stated that software and drivers will still be there, you seem misunderstand that part. I saw many people misunderstand the EOL(end of life) thing, like "erasing" everything to end it. That's not how it works. Even mega copra wants to, or at least want you to believe. but practically they can't. I want to point that out and I hope that more people realize and know about digital preservation, digital rights repair, and other options. whenever something is put to an end. There still are values need to be preserved. I continue on the topic and share some further details. I spent little time on those and put those out roughly.

the question, and the subject of removing software support you talked about. i think it's all about the windows. MS has no intention of supporting MR on Linux. it's almost nothing to strip from linux to begin with. i don't see anywhere you specific state it's removing software from that project.
when topic was redirected and specifically mentioning you'r on Linux. i also question myself what is this about. what do missed. and i do not have any insight about linux MR.
Unless there is some sort of infringement or financial struggle, i dont think MS have too much power over such projects.

My main device is depricated oculus. from the meta.. different type of craps. personally i don't care it too much about WMR or oculus. but i do know about preservation little bit. that's my 2 cents.

Deprication doesn't mean that it has to be windows 12, after all. It could also mean Win11 25H1.

Not update to W12 or W11 25hx,or whatever Windows Microsoft calls their future windows..

it's same. i probably need to phrase it better.

[Onno]

Originally posted by Insônia:

Originally posted by Onno:

I guess you missed the fact that I decided to move on to linux in 2022?

you ask me about those software why do i care or why you mention move to linux. am i off topic? should i delete those?

It depends. But it might be useful information to those who are still on windows and might want to make it work in the future. So what you posted isn't totally useless either. It is just not very applicable to the comments you replied to.
The topic at large is about how people feel about WMR being killed off. My personal take, which I opted to not include in the OP, as to create a proper separation between the question and my personal opinion, is that it matters little to me for the day to day goings on, but that I would like to have it live long enough to see a linux successor appear which might then enable me to use my WMR headset on linux once the hardware appears that is able to power it without (too much) of a loss in performance.
You then reply to my take and go on about all kinds of details, but fail to take into account this rather important fact when it comes to my personal take. It is as if you were so enraged by the fact that I dared to deplore the state of WMR in the first place that you forgot to check if your response was on topic. (especially the 2nd reply, but the picture is true for all your replies in general) Deprication doesn't mean that it has to be windows 12, after all. It could also mean Win11 25H1.

[Xupicor]

Originally posted by Onno:

Tuning the settings down to get better FPS in VR just so you can use VR is pure copium in my opinion.

Eh, I think you're overdramatizing this quite a bit. Customizing graphical settings to match your hardware specs better is standard behavior on PC and was so for as long as PC gaming existed. I would prefer that over "Oh, can't run it, guess no VR for me at all".

Heck, you're on linux - linux's middle name is "customization"! ; D

The thing with VR is that in order to have acceptable visuals (G2 really had that "wow" factor at launch, but isn't as great compared to modern hmds, which is just natural) you need to have quite high resolution, render twice for each eye and need to distort each frame to fit the particular headset. In that way, headsets were ahead of the curve in the sense that it was very hard to impossible to find a hardware setup that could handle it at those resolutions and AAA level graphics when some games maxed out would barely run acceptable framerates on flat screen.

That got quite a bit better with 20xx and 30xx series cards and is in an even better spot with 40xx. It's not cheap, though.

In my experience, with 3080 on G2 I could have maxed out IL-2 and be smooth as butter. Looked great too (well, draw distance and detail at a distance could be nicer). DCS - I had it maxed out on 3080 too (yes, max view range too), but it didn't work nearly as well as IL-2. Frames would vary from 20s to 100+ in 2.8 with the floor being higher in 2.7 times, depending on scenario, map, server and module. But it was very enjoyable even at 50-60 fps average in OpenXR.

With 4090 and Crystal and onm 2.9 with DLSS it's even better save for some ghosting here and there, but I'll gladly take the occasional ghosting for more smoothness, especially at that resolution.

Maxed out DCS with very decent frames in 40-50s at worst, 70-80 most of the time, to 120+ in some areas or at higher altitudes, on a high resolution headset -- now, for me, that's _plenty_ acceptable. It's not flawless, but I'll settle for less than flawless because chasing a flawless experience in VR is like resisting Borg. It's futile. ; )


So yeah, if you're not willing to put up with some compromises then there's no other way than throwing piles of money on the problem. But even then don't expect that to fix the problem entirely. I'm sorry to say, but we might not live to see a "flawless" VR experience, so if I were you - I'd start enjoying what I have instead of waiting for decades while the hardware might always be below your rising expectations.

I don't have a problem with you playing flat screen though, mind you. I don't care that much either way - but you seem to want to play VR, already have a decent VR headset but can't force yourself to deal with some realities of it to use it. It's a waste, the headset isn't getting any better - and in fact can get worse because of the topical software shenanigans and HP abandoning the market. Sure, you'll get way better GPU and CPU in a couple of years and it will probably be enough to run G2 on maxed out settings 90fps solid. But then you'll have to confront the fact that even then the sweet spot where it's very crisp is not that great, FOV isn't that great (and because of the sweet spot you need to move your head more), during warm days it will cook your face if you don't put a fan in front of you (that really helps!) and all the other normal inconviences of VR play, some of which may be fixed with newer headsets... which will demand more raw power to run on their native resolutions.

There's a Polish saying roughly translated to: if you don't have what you'd like, you should like what you have. I know it's not ideal, but it is what it is. I came to the conclusion that it's better to have what I have, imperfect as it is, than to wait for something that I may not live long enough to see.

Wish you the best with Monado in the future.

[Onno]

Originally posted by Xupicor:

Originally posted by Onno:

Tuning the settings down to get better FPS in VR just so you can use VR is pure copium in my opinion.

Eh, I think you're overdramatizing this quite a bit. Customizing graphical settings to match your hardware specs better is standard behavior on PC and was so for as long as PC gaming existed. I would prefer that over "Oh, can't run it, guess no VR for me at all".

Heck, you're on linux - linux's middle name is "customization"! ; D

The thing with VR is that in order to have acceptable visuals (G2 really had that "wow" factor at launch, but isn't as great compared to modern hmds, which is just natural) you need to have quite high resolution, render twice for each eye and need to distort each frame to fit the particular headset. In that way, headsets were ahead of the curve in the sense that it was very hard to impossible to find a hardware setup that could handle it at those resolutions and AAA level graphics when some games maxed out would barely run acceptable framerates on flat screen.

That got quite a bit better with 20xx and 30xx series cards and is in an even better spot with 40xx. It's not cheap, though.

In my experience, with 3080 on G2 I could have maxed out IL-2 and be smooth as butter. Looked great too (well, draw distance and detail at a distance could be nicer). DCS - I had it maxed out on 3080 too (yes, max view range too), but it didn't work nearly as well as IL-2. Frames would vary from 20s to 100+ in 2.8 with the floor being higher in 2.7 times, depending on scenario, map, server and module. But it was very enjoyable even at 50-60 fps average in OpenXR.

With 4090 and Crystal and onm 2.9 with DLSS it's even better save for some ghosting here and there, but I'll gladly take the occasional ghosting for more smoothness, especially at that resolution.

Maxed out DCS with very decent frames in 40-50s at worst, 70-80 most of the time, to 120+ in some areas or at higher altitudes, on a high resolution headset -- now, for me, that's _plenty_ acceptable. It's not flawless, but I'll settle for less than flawless because chasing a flawless experience in VR is like resisting Borg. It's futile. ; )


So yeah, if you're not willing to put up with some compromises then there's no other way than throwing piles of money on the problem. But even then don't expect that to fix the problem entirely. I'm sorry to say, but we might not live to see a "flawless" VR experience, so if I were you - I'd start enjoying what I have instead of waiting for decades while the hardware might always be below your rising expectations.

Once the wow factor wore off, I just could not ignore the impact that the visual deficiencies had on my performance. The the lower visual quality and the lower range at which you can spot enemies, especially those on the ground, were just an ever increasing annoyance factor for me. Accepting the resulting degradation in overall performance in terms of mission outcome was just not worth it to me. This too was too much of a price to pay for me. I've never been the type of person to accept compromises easily. And in the past I didn't really have to. Throwing money at the problem has often been my solution in the past. I have been playing on 2160p monitors since around 2016, and I have grown accustomed to a high level of image quality. I even ran dual ATi cards using CF for a while. But the requirements of VR and the increase in GPU prices means that it would take a whole new level of money required, and I just can't justify doing that for what I think will still likely be a sub-par interim solution.

Originally posted by Xupicor:

I don't have a problem with you playing flat screen though, mind you. I don't care that much either way - but you seem to want to play VR, already have a decent VR headset but can't force yourself to deal with some realities of it to use it. It's a waste, the headset isn't getting any better - and in fact can get worse because of the topical software shenanigans and HP abandoning the market. Sure, you'll get way better GPU and CPU in a couple of years and it will probably be enough to run G2 on maxed out settings 90fps solid. But then you'll have to confront the fact that even then the sweet spot where it's very crisp is not that great, FOV isn't that great (and because of the sweet spot you need to move your head more), during warm days it will cook your face if you don't put a fan in front of you (that really helps!) and all the other normal inconviences of VR play, some of which may be fixed with newer headsets... which will demand more raw power to run on their native resolutions.

There's a Polish saying roughly translated to: if you don't have what you'd like, you should like what you have. I know it's not ideal, but it is what it is. I came to the conclusion that it's better to have what I have, imperfect as it is, than to wait for something that I may not live long enough to see.

In a way, my analysis is similar to yours, in that VR is just not going to be perfect for now due to performance constraints of the current hardware. I just came to a different conclusion as to what that should mean for my use of VR. I have accepted the immaturity of VR and thus decided to shelve it for the time being. I recognise the potential that VR has, but I will not accept its current state. VR is not the be-all end-all of gaming for me. In its current state, the impact on game results is too big to consider it a sensible trade-off. To me, "forcing myself to deal with the realities of using it" is more like: "VR for the sake of VR" and very comparable to the tale of the king's clothes. Not a good thing. I'm not saying that nobody should be using VR, but I have trouble understanding why anyone would willingly kneecap themselves in terms of game results for just a sensation of being there.

The polish saying you're referring to is a bit off-putting to me, to be honest. It conditions for a mediocrity mindset, which I find appalling. I've always been raised to be aspirational and ambitious. If you don't have what you want, you go get it or make it happen.

I'm not as pessimistic on the future of GPU compute. I think that there is plenty of opportunity for performance increases once the timing constraints for MCMs have been ironed out. Hence my initial estimate that a 6090 might be the one to deliver the horsepower to run VR properly on a G2. Once we see HMDs with a FoV of 150° or more with a PPD of over 60, I might consider spending on a new HMD. One which is meant to last at least a decade. (just like my other peripherals)

I am a bit pissed that I spent close to €700 on what turns out will soon mostly be a paperweight. I had hoped to be able to shelve it for a while and reuse it, like you would with other peripherals such as a monitor or a speaker set.

Originally posted by Xupicor:

Wish you the best with Monado in the future.

Thanks! I really hope Monado that will offer a possible way out of this situation and allow me to use the G2 once the right hardware for it is available, until we see the day that VR can offer an experience that is at the level of a 4K 2D screen.

[Xupicor]

I have trouble understanding why anyone would willingly kneecap themselves in terms of game results for just a sensation of being there.

Oh come on now... ;) Let's just say I disagree on several points.

[Gunfreak]

My pimax crystal has far far far better quality than my 2k gaming screen.
I run high sett7, mosty just MSAA and AA that is turned off. Looks fantastic.
When i record replays for use in vidoes in 2d. I have to add all that msaa and AA back. And it still doesn't look as good as my pimax.